+2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

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+2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Legoktm
Hi,

After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.

I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
full process.

-- Legoktm

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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Yuri Astrakhan
Thanks Legoktm!

For the reference, I was granted these rights as a volunteer, before
joining WMF: https://lists.gt.net/wiki/wikitech/335950

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>
> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
> full process.
>
> -- Legoktm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Chad
In reply to this post by Legoktm
If he had them before, he should retain them. I've granted both.

-Chad

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 7:45 PM Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>
> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
> full process.
>
> -- Legoktm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Legoktm
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>
> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
> full process.
>
> -- Legoktm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the future.

--
brian
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Subramanya Sastry
On 01/25/2017 10:04 AM, Brian Wolff wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
>> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>>
>> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
>> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
>> full process.
>>
>> -- Legoktm
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the future.
>
> --
> brian

+1.

Subbu.

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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Kevin Smith
I support restoring the rights in this case, but I'm not sure it should be
automatic in all cases. If having +2 rights is relatively harmless and
reversible, then an automatic (but announced) restoration of the rights
should be fine.

The issue is that someone who leaves the foundation could do so under
unfriendly terms, possibly affecting their ability to do good work. I know
we don't want to think that a previously productive volunteer could later
cause problems, but it is possible.

That's why I think there should be some form of check, so we have
confidence that this person still has good intentions. For example, their
manager and/or someone from Talent & Culture could be consulted, or trusted
people who still have close contact with the person so know their state of
mind. It could be quick and lightweight, in almost all cases, but skipping
that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
isn't a big deal.




Kevin Smith
Agile Coach, Wikimedia Foundation


On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 01/25/2017 10:04 AM, Brian Wolff wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore his
>>> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>>>
>>> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
>>> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
>>> full process.
>>>
>>> -- Legoktm
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>> I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the future.
>>
>> --
>> brian
>>
>
> +1.
>
> Subbu.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Trey Jones
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I support restoring the rights in this case, but I'm not sure it should be
> automatic in all cases. If having +2 rights is relatively harmless and
> reversible, then an automatic (but announced) restoration of the rights
> should be fine.
>
> The issue is that someone who leaves the foundation could do so under
> unfriendly terms, possibly affecting their ability to do good work. I know
> we don't want to think that a previously productive volunteer could later
> cause problems, but it is possible.
>
> That's why I think there should be some form of check, so we have
> confidence that this person still has good intentions. For example, their
> manager and/or someone from Talent & Culture could be consulted, or trusted
> people who still have close contact with the person so know their state of
> mind. It could be quick and lightweight, in almost all cases, but skipping
> that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
> isn't a big deal.



Kevin Smith
> Agile Coach, Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
+2

(Expected, but not automatic sounds right to me, too.)



>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 01/25/2017 10:04 AM, Brian Wolff wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
> >>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore
> his
> >>> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
> >>>
> >>> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
> >>> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
> >>> full process.
> >>>
> >>> -- Legoktm
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>>
> >> I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the
> future.
> >>
> >> --
> >> brian
> >>
> >
> > +1.
> >
> > Subbu.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Alex Monk
In reply to this post by Kevin Smith
On 25 January 2017 at 19:48, Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I support restoring the rights in this case, but I'm not sure it should be
> automatic in all cases. If having +2 rights is relatively harmless and
> reversible, then an automatic (but announced) restoration of the rights
> should be fine.
>
> The issue is that someone who leaves the foundation could do so under
> unfriendly terms, possibly affecting their ability to do good work. I know
> we don't want to think that a previously productive volunteer could later
> cause problems, but it is possible.
>
> That's why I think there should be some form of check, so we have
> confidence that this person still has good intentions. For example, their
> manager and/or someone from Talent & Culture could be consulted, or trusted
> people who still have close contact with the person so know their state of
> mind. It could be quick and lightweight, in almost all cases, but skipping
> that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
> isn't a big deal.
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Smith
> Agile Coach, Wikimedia Foundation
>

You don't appear to be a developer. Even if you were, Brian said 'similar
situation' - i.e., where someone had been granted rights before becoming
WMF staff.

The audit log shows that Brandon Black removed Yurik's rights on January
17th at 10:36 PM. Brandon, you need to explain why you did this.
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Kevin Smith
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You don't appear to be a developer. Even if you were, Brian said 'similar
> situation' - i.e., where someone had been granted rights before becoming
> WMF staff.
>

​I am a developer, but not a wikimedia developer (yet?). That's why I'm not
exactly clear on the potential risks of giving +2 rights to someone who
intends harm.

We are talking about exactly the same situation: Someone was a productive
volunteer, then staff, then no longer staff. 99+% of the time, they should
retain their rights, or get them back shortly after leaving. But there may
be cases where someone would be disgruntled, and if rights are automatic in
all cases, such a person could do damage. I'm just suggesting that there
should be a quick and simple check to be sure that's not the case. Being
without rights for a couple days doesn't seem like a small price to pay for
the safety of the project.

​Kevin​
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Alex Monk
On 25 January 2017 at 21:00, Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We are talking about exactly the same situation: Someone was a productive
> volunteer, then staff, then no longer staff. 99+% of the time, they should
> retain their rights, or get them back shortly after leaving. But there may
> be cases where someone would be disgruntled, and if rights are automatic in
> all cases, such a person could do damage. I'm just suggesting that there
> should be a quick and simple check to be sure that's not the case. Being
> without rights for a couple days doesn't seem like a small price to pay for
> the safety of the project.
>

If they were added as a volunteer that means they passed a vote to be
there, we're not going to start adding such extra checks and requirements.
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Yuri Astrakhan
In reply to this post by Kevin Smith
How is that different from becoming disgruntled while still working at WMF?
Or becoming disgruntled without ever joining? Or stolen credentials?

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 16:01 Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You don't appear to be a developer. Even if you were, Brian said 'similar
> situation' - i.e., where someone had been granted rights before becoming
> WMF staff.
>

​I am a developer, but not a wikimedia developer (yet?). That's why I'm not
exactly clear on the potential risks of giving +2 rights to someone who
intends harm.

We are talking about exactly the same situation: Someone was a productive
volunteer, then staff, then no longer staff. 99+% of the time, they should
retain their rights, or get them back shortly after leaving. But there may
be cases where someone would be disgruntled, and if rights are automatic in
all cases, such a person could do damage. I'm just suggesting that there
should be a quick and simple check to be sure that's not the case. Being
without rights for a couple days doesn't seem like a small price to pay for
the safety of the project.

​Kevin​
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Kevin Smith
To be clear, i think some common sense should apply - e.g. If someone was
fired for trying to put a backdoor in MW they shouldnt automatically get
their rights back.

But generally speaking if they were trusted before WMF, I trust they have
the maturity after WMF to use their rights appropriately even if they are
angry or whatever. If that trust was misguided their rights can easily be
removed later (this is +2 not shell we are talking about after all).

--
Brian

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017, Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I support restoring the rights in this case, but I'm not sure it should be
> automatic in all cases. If having +2 rights is relatively harmless and
> reversible, then an automatic (but announced) restoration of the rights
> should be fine.
>
> The issue is that someone who leaves the foundation could do so under
> unfriendly terms, possibly affecting their ability to do good work. I know
> we don't want to think that a previously productive volunteer could later
> cause problems, but it is possible.
>
> That's why I think there should be some form of check, so we have
> confidence that this person still has good intentions. For example, their
> manager and/or someone from Talent & Culture could be consulted, or
trusted

> people who still have close contact with the person so know their state of
> mind. It could be quick and lightweight, in almost all cases, but skipping
> that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
> isn't a big deal.
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Smith
> Agile Coach, Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 01/25/2017 10:04 AM, Brian Wolff wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
>>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore
his

>>>> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
>>>>
>>>> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
>>>> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
>>>> full process.
>>>>
>>>> -- Legoktm
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>> I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the
future.

>>>
>>> --
>>> brian
>>>
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> Subbu.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Amir Sarabadani-2
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think If someone has +2 rights before joining
WMF, leaving WMF is not a reason to remove rights at all. If there was a
case someone abuse their power and gets fired because of that. "The abuse"
should be the reason to lose the right not "leaving WMF"/"being fired"/etc..

Best

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 12:35 AM Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To be clear, i think some common sense should apply - e.g. If someone was
> fired for trying to put a backdoor in MW they shouldnt automatically get
> their rights back.
>
> But generally speaking if they were trusted before WMF, I trust they have
> the maturity after WMF to use their rights appropriately even if they are
> angry or whatever. If that trust was misguided their rights can easily be
> removed later (this is +2 not shell we are talking about after all).
>
> --
> Brian
>
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2017, Kevin Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I support restoring the rights in this case, but I'm not sure it should
> be
> > automatic in all cases. If having +2 rights is relatively harmless and
> > reversible, then an automatic (but announced) restoration of the rights
> > should be fine.
> >
> > The issue is that someone who leaves the foundation could do so under
> > unfriendly terms, possibly affecting their ability to do good work. I
> know
> > we don't want to think that a previously productive volunteer could later
> > cause problems, but it is possible.
> >
> > That's why I think there should be some form of check, so we have
> > confidence that this person still has good intentions. For example, their
> > manager and/or someone from Talent & Culture could be consulted, or
> trusted
> > people who still have close contact with the person so know their state
> of
> > mind. It could be quick and lightweight, in almost all cases, but
> skipping
> > that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
> > isn't a big deal.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin Smith
> > Agile Coach, Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Subramanya Sastry <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 01/25/2017 10:04 AM, Brian Wolff wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> After speaking with Yurik, I've filed
> >>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156219> on his behalf to restore
> his
> >>>> membership in the mediawiki and maps-dev groups.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would appreciate guidance in whether these rights can be summarily
> >>>> granted since he used to have them, or if it needs to go through the
> >>>> full process.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Legoktm
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>>>
> >>> I support doing this automatically in any similar situation in the
> future.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> brian
> >>>
> >>
> >> +1.
> >>
> >> Subbu.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Stas Malyshev
Hi!

>>> that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
>>> isn't a big deal.

+2 isn't super-big deal since all changes are public and you're not
supposed to self-+2 in any case, and anything doable by patch can also
be undone by patch. As I understand it, it's more like "this person
knows enough and known enough to get approval rights". It won't change
if somebody leaves WMF. If there's external reasons for +2 removal, that
can happen without WMF in the picture and I imagine there are rules for
this which can be applied.
So I'd say if somebody had pre-WMF +2, they should not lose it just
because they joined and then left the WMF, and this should be automatic
by default. Non-default cases can always be handled on per-case basis.

--
Stas Malyshev
[hidden email]

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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Alex Monk
On Wednesday, January 25, 2017, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> You don't appear to be a developer. Even if you were, Brian said 'similar
> situation' - i.e., where someone had been granted rights before becoming
> WMF staff.
>
> The audit log shows that Brandon Black removed Yurik's rights on January
> 17th at 10:36 PM. Brandon, you need to explain why you did this.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

There's not exactly a whole lot of precedent here. Presumably, bblack did
it as part of an off boarding procedure. Eventhough I disagree with this
action, I dont think its an unreasonable action, especially given the lack
of precedent. I dont see any need for him to come and explain himself.
Hopefully once this discussion finishes there will be consensus on the
proper procedure so there will be less confusion in the future.

--
Brian
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Alex Monk
On 25 January 2017 at 21:24, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Presumably, bblack did
> it as part of an off boarding procedure. Eventhough I disagree with this
> action, I dont think its an unreasonable action, especially given the lack
> of precedent. I dont see any need for him to come and explain himself.


That's what I'm concerned about. Yurik's rights were granted via a vote of
developers and therefore I have decide to require an explanation.
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's not exactly a whole lot of precedent here. Presumably, bblack did
> it as part of an off boarding procedure. Eventhough I disagree with this
> action, I dont think its an unreasonable action, especially given the lack
> of precedent.


More pragmatically, was there any easy way for him to find out how the +2
was granted? Not sure if we record those decisions anywhere (other than
phab tickets which are not easy to find).
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Alex Monk
Yes, they're announced on wikitech-l:
https://lists.gt.net/wiki/wikitech/335950
If you go back through one of the pages linked in that email to the date it
was sent, you find the relevant vote too:
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Gerrit/Project_ownership&oldid=648776#Yurik_for_Core_.2B2
Even without that, the audit log shows the user was added to the group a)
by Sumanah, and b) before it was announced that Yurik had joined the
foundation.

On 25 January 2017 at 21:43, Gergo Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > There's not exactly a whole lot of precedent here. Presumably, bblack did
> > it as part of an off boarding procedure. Eventhough I disagree with this
> > action, I dont think its an unreasonable action, especially given the
> lack
> > of precedent.
>
>
> More pragmatically, was there any easy way for him to find out how the +2
> was granted? Not sure if we record those decisions anywhere (other than
> phab tickets which are not easy to find).
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Stas Malyshev
Stas Malyshev wrote:
>>that step entirely seems risky to me. Unless, as I said, having +2 really
>>isn't a big deal.
>
>+2 isn't super-big deal since all changes are public and you're not
>supposed to self-+2 in any case, and anything doable by patch can also
>be undone by patch. As I understand it, it's more like "this person
>knows enough and known enough to get approval rights". It won't change
>if somebody leaves WMF.

Hi. For what it's worth, <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gerrit/%2B2>
specifically emphasizes that +2 is a big deal.

>If there's external reasons for +2 removal, that can happen without WMF
>in the picture and I imagine there are rules for this which can be
>applied.

Revocation of +2 is documented at
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gerrit/%2B2#Revocation>.

MZMcBride



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Re: +2 request for yurik in mediawiki and maps-dev

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by Alex Monk
On 25/01/17 22:03, Alex Monk wrote:

>> We are talking about exactly the same situation: Someone was a productive
>> volunteer, then staff, then no longer staff. 99+% of the time, they should
>> retain their rights, or get them back shortly after leaving. But there may
>> be cases where someone would be disgruntled, and if rights are automatic in
>> all cases, such a person could do damage. I'm just suggesting that there
>> should be a quick and simple check to be sure that's not the case. Being
>> without rights for a couple days doesn't seem like a small price to pay for
>> the safety of the project.
>>
> If they were added as a volunteer that means they passed a vote to be
> there, we're not going to start adding such extra checks and requirements.

Hello,

That is quite a bold statement Alex. Being staff or contractor to the
foundation is quite a different scope than acting as volunteer.  There
are deadlines, work to be done that you would prefer not, some internal
drama and politics.  And for staff potentially clash with management and
colleague.

The staff period can have changed the state of mind of the person, even
had it been a volunteer before employment. If leaving in bad terms with
an eventual envy of retaliation against the project, then code get screwed.

A very basic exit interview would clarify the future ground and as Kevin
said in 99% of case it will be a non issue. But we might catch the 1%
lone wolf that will eventually cause havoc.  For the price of a few
minutes interview, I think it is worth it.

Imho, when staff / contractor finish their relationship with the
foundation, all rights should be removed and the process should start
over (eg: make sure the volunteer as a NDA signed and is only granted
appropriate rights).

cheers,

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso




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