86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

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86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
Dear readers

Yesterday, on September 15th 2011, the German Wikipedia closed the poll
(Meinungsbild) "Einführung persönlicher Bildfilter". [1] It asked the
question if the personal image filter can be introduced or if it should
not be introduced.

A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
introduce the feature.

The questions are:
* Will the board or the WMF proceed with the introduction of the
personal image filter against the will of it's second largest community?
* If the WMF/board does not care about the first question. Will it
affect the way the personal image filter will be implemented? For
example: Not for all projects. A different implementation as suggested
inside the "image filter referendum".
* Will there be an attempt to follow this example and to question other
communities the same question?

Greetings from
Tobias Oelgarte

[1]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter
[2]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter#Auswertung

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Peter Gervai-5
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:08, Tobias Oelgarte
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
> introduce the feature.

I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
the feature, so wikipedias who need it can activate and use it, while
those who do not want to use it will not request its activation, or
will request its deactivation. I see no technical reason not to do
that so I see no reason not to do it this way.

Peter

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Oliver Koslowski
Am 16.09.2011 10:40, schrieb Peter Gervai:
> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
> the feature, so wikipedias who need it can activate and use it, while
> those who do not want to use it will not request its activation, or
> will request its deactivation. I see no technical reason not to do
> that so I see no reason not to do it this way.
>
>

Where exactly has such a vote taken place?

Just a few bits about the "Meinungsbild" in the de-WP: Only active
authors are allowed to vote since the results of a "Meinungsbild" are
binding, unlike the results of ordinary polls ("Umfage").

Of those 14% who did not oppose the filter, I did not really see much
actual support for it either. The general tone of the people who did not
vote against it was that they don't mind that such a tool should be
introduced if there's really demand for it.

The 86% rejection rate means that the feature will not be activated in
the de-WP and that the WMF would be in a heap of trouble if they tried
to force the second largest project to adopt something that the people
who actually shape the project simply do not want. I believe it is also
safe to assume that those 86% are not likely to do the dirty work of
tagging pictures with categories to support the filter.

Regards,
Oliver

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Fae-7
In reply to this post by Tobias Oelgarte
What a strange assumption from Peter. I don't believe for one minute
that WMF would commission a global referendum and then ignore the
results. If there has been an official statement along these lines I
would love to be pointed to it.

Cheers,
Fae

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Peter Gervai-5
On 16 September 2011 09:40, Peter Gervai <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:08, Tobias Oelgarte
> <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
>> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
>> introduce the feature.

> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
> the feature,


Citation needed.


- d.

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Peter Gervai-5
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:23, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
>> the feature,
>
> Citation needed.

Well I am the universally official source for my own beliefs.

But then you state that WMF will make it compulsory for all projects
to activate the feature? (Citation is welcome, sure, but not
required.)

g

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

David Gerard-2
On 16 September 2011 10:27, Peter Gervai <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:23, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
>>> the feature,

>> Citation needed.

> Well I am the universally official source for my own beliefs.


I mean the claim that "we" have voted for developing the feature,
obviously. If you have no evidence for this claim, say so.

I would also suggest, more generally, that a strategy of asserting
that consensus was reached wanting the feature, when this is strongly
not the case, is unlikely to convince people - particularly when the
discussion is about strong evidence of consensus *against*.

If you're so sure there's strong consensus in favour of it, I suggest
we run a series of polls, similar to the de:wp poll, which I'm sure
will show that lots of people want the feature.


- d.

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
In reply to this post by Peter Gervai-5
Am 16.09.2011 10:40, schrieb Peter Gervai:

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:08, Tobias Oelgarte
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
>> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
>> introduce the feature.
> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
> the feature, so wikipedias who need it can activate and use it, while
> those who do not want to use it will not request its activation, or
> will request its deactivation. I see no technical reason not to do
> that so I see no reason not to do it this way.
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
It weren't just a poll. It was also a discussion in search for
arguments. One big issue is question on how we decide what is or might
be objectionable. From the point of an encyclopedia nothing is
objectionable, as long it is a fact and represented that way.

Another issue is the questioning in comparison to the referendum. The
referendum showed that the global community is divided. But more then 2
weeks after the referendum we still have no results per project. This
makes it impossible compare both polls and come to a conclusion what the
reasons for the different outcome is: Where it just the (manipulative)
questions of the referendum or does the German play a very different
role in global context. Something we can answer. I asked for this
results multiple times. But still no reaction whatsoever. This sucks.

Tobias

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 16 September 2011 11:23, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16 September 2011 09:40, Peter Gervai <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:08, Tobias Oelgarte
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
> >> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
> >> introduce the feature.
>
> > I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
> > the feature,
>
>
> Citation needed.


Meanwhile, over on Bugzilla…
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30208
Am I the only one who thinks this is getting somewhat out of hand?

Stuff like "I'm getting tired of your aggressive comments and borderline
personal attacks (…) All you did at Wikimania was to publish a flyer full of
proven lies to reinforce your mantra" (responding to things I wouldn't at
all consider aggressive) is perhaps a sign that tempers are more than a
little frayed.

Michel
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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Peter Gervai-5
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:31, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16 September 2011 10:27, Peter Gervai <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:23, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I believe it is a fair assumption that we have voted for developing
>>>> the feature,
>
>>> Citation needed.
>
>> Well I am the universally official source for my own beliefs.
>
> I mean the claim that "we" have voted for developing the feature,
> obviously.

Please read what I wrote, you have quoted it. If I wanted to write "we
have voted as" then I would have written just that. I didn't.

> If you have no evidence for this claim, say so.

Well I do not have the original poll handy but as far as I remember it
it was about what we think would be good to have, what to would like
to see implemented. I do not remember any question about making it
compulsory. Do you?

> I would also suggest, more generally, that a strategy of asserting
> that consensus was reached wanting the feature, when this is strongly
> not the case, is unlikely to convince people - particularly when the
> discussion is about strong evidence of consensus *against*.

I am not sure what is the point debating this with _me_. (Apart from
my person I mean.)
I am not German. I am not active on DEWP. I voted for the feature, and
I believe it's good to have it. You try to teach a lesson to me about
your own troubles, but I really cannot help it.

The only thing I can offer my views are the global poll about the
feature, and yes, it wasn't a strong concensus. But even it it were I
do not think we should change the otherwise very well working method
of WMF *not* messing with local projects apart from the very basic
principles like the five pillars. This feature isn't *that* important
- this is my opinion, please save me from asking a citation.

> If you're so sure there's strong consensus in favour of it, I suggest
> we run a series of polls, similar to the de:wp poll, which I'm sure
> will show that lots of people want the feature.

Ironically this was what I was talking about, and what you were rejecting.

All I say is that if a local project vote not to use a feature then
they shouldn't have to. If you disagree with that one you can simply
say it, but do not try (and fail) to describe what I want to convince
people about, please.

<g>

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
Am 16.09.2011 11:59, schrieb Peter Gervai:

>
> I am not German. I am not active on DEWP. I voted for the feature, and
> I believe it's good to have it. You try to teach a lesson to me about
> your own troubles, but I really cannot help it.
>
> The only thing I can offer my views are the global poll about the
> feature, and yes, it wasn't a strong concensus. But even it it were I
> do not think we should change the otherwise very well working method
> of WMF *not* messing with local projects apart from the very basic
> principles like the five pillars. This feature isn't *that* important
> - this is my opinion, please save me from asking a citation.
You could never vote for the feature. The referendum did not ask the
question if you want it or don't want it. It only if you see this
feature as important. (important because you want it, or important
because you don't want it?)

I see no consensus in the referendum. The opinions are widely spread and
divided. Additionally it wasn't the question if something else would be
more important. Asking if something is important is very different
matter as if to ask if something is more important as something else.
Please remember that, before coming to conclusions.

>> If you're so sure there's strong consensus in favour of it, I suggest
>> we run a series of polls, similar to the de:wp poll, which I'm sure
>> will show that lots of people want the feature.
> Ironically this was what I was talking about, and what you were rejecting.
>
> All I say is that if a local project vote not to use a feature then
> they shouldn't have to. If you disagree with that one you can simply
> say it, but do not try (and fail) to describe what I want to convince
> people about, please.
>
> <g>
Questioning other projects, if they want that filter or not, would be
good thing to do. The referendum did not ask this question at all.
Additionally it would be time to release per project voting data.

86% of the German contributers opposed the feature. Does the same
pattern apply to the global poll, or was it just the difference in
question? We don't know as long per project data isn't released. I
repeatedly asked for this data for more then 2 weeks. So far, no
additional data was released. It somehow starts to piss me off.

Tobias

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Peter Gervai-5
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:15, Tobias Oelgarte
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I see no consensus in the referendum. The opinions are widely spread and
> divided.

Well you have to see that such controversial features will never have
huge consensus in such a large and diverse community. Even simple
majority would be an awesome result. :-)

g

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Oliver Koslowski
Am 16.09.2011 12:22, schrieb Peter Gervai:
> Even simple majority would be an awesome result.:-)
True. But not even that can be assumed from the referendum because it
never asked whether or not the feature should be introduced in the first
place.

Regards,
Oliver

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
In reply to this post by Tobias Oelgarte
Hi all;

There are more issues with images in German Wikipedia.

It is funny how German Wikipedia doesn't allow images[1] (image added by
me[2] in de:, and later removed by other[3]) because they follow the most
restrictive copyright law from Germany, Austria and Switzerland[note 1], but
they are now against giving people the choice to hide images.

I think that we can do a nice move here. We can enable image filter in
German Wikipedia for all those who don't want to see
copyrighted-images-for-German-law, meanwhile allowing other people to see
all Commons splendour. Using the image filter to improve the rights of
readers of German Wikipedia. Very cool, right? ; )

Regards,
emijrp

[1]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bildrechte#Wikipedia_richtet_sich_nach_DACH-Recht
[2] http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_Knox&oldid=81377280
[3] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Knox

[note 1] I heard there are German speaking users outside Europe, right? I
heard too that, from Germany, you can follow interwiki and see that images
in other Wikipedias, right? So, what is the sense of that policy? Are not
the servers in USA?

2011/9/16 Tobias Oelgarte <[hidden email]>

> Dear readers
>
> Yesterday, on September 15th 2011, the German Wikipedia closed the poll
> (Meinungsbild) "Einführung persönlicher Bildfilter". [1] It asked the
> question if the personal image filter can be introduced or if it should
> not be introduced.
>
> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
> introduce the feature.
>
> The questions are:
> * Will the board or the WMF proceed with the introduction of the
> personal image filter against the will of it's second largest community?
> * If the WMF/board does not care about the first question. Will it
> affect the way the personal image filter will be implemented? For
> example: Not for all projects. A different implementation as suggested
> inside the "image filter referendum".
> * Will there be an attempt to follow this example and to question other
> communities the same question?
>
> Greetings from
> Tobias Oelgarte
>
> [1]
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter
> [2]
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter#Auswertung
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Milos Rancic-2
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:39, emijrp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think that we can do a nice move here. We can enable image filter in
> German Wikipedia for all those who don't want to see
> copyrighted-images-for-German-law, meanwhile allowing other people to see
> all Commons splendour. Using the image filter to improve the rights of
> readers of German Wikipedia. Very cool, right? ; )

Oh, you found the first useful purpose of the image filter!

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
In reply to this post by Peter Gervai-5
Am 16.09.2011 12:22, schrieb Peter Gervai:
>> I see no consensus in the referendum. The opinions are widely spread and
>> divided.
> Well you have to see that such controversial features will never have
> huge consensus in such a large and diverse community. Even simple
> majority would be an awesome result. :-)
>
> g
In a poll that asks for importance and is divided more or less into two
groups? Thats a very strange interpretation.

Tobias

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
In reply to this post by Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
That is an legal issue. We do that to comply with the law, since that
image isn't in public domain under German jurisdiction. This has nothing
to do with hiding perfectly legal content. Additionally an optional
filter would not help to make it legal. Filter or no filter wouldn't
change a thing.

Two different topics, one wrong assumption.

Tobias

Am 16.09.2011 12:39, schrieb emijrp:

> Hi all;
>
> There are more issues with images in German Wikipedia.
>
> It is funny how German Wikipedia doesn't allow images[1] (image added by
> me[2] in de:, and later removed by other[3]) because they follow the most
> restrictive copyright law from Germany, Austria and Switzerland[note 1], but
> they are now against giving people the choice to hide images.
>
> I think that we can do a nice move here. We can enable image filter in
> German Wikipedia for all those who don't want to see
> copyrighted-images-for-German-law, meanwhile allowing other people to see
> all Commons splendour. Using the image filter to improve the rights of
> readers of German Wikipedia. Very cool, right? ; )
>
> Regards,
> emijrp
>
> [1]
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bildrechte#Wikipedia_richtet_sich_nach_DACH-Recht
> [2] http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_Knox&oldid=81377280
> [3] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Knox
>
> [note 1] I heard there are German speaking users outside Europe, right? I
> heard too that, from Germany, you can follow interwiki and see that images
> in other Wikipedias, right? So, what is the sense of that policy? Are not
> the servers in USA?
>
> 2011/9/16 Tobias Oelgarte<[hidden email]>
>
>> Dear readers
>>
>> Yesterday, on September 15th 2011, the German Wikipedia closed the poll
>> (Meinungsbild) "Einführung persönlicher Bildfilter". [1] It asked the
>> question if the personal image filter can be introduced or if it should
>> not be introduced.
>>
>> A strong majority of 86% percent voted to not allow the personal image
>> filter [2] , despite the fact that the board already decided to
>> introduce the feature.
>>
>> The questions are:
>> * Will the board or the WMF proceed with the introduction of the
>> personal image filter against the will of it's second largest community?
>> * If the WMF/board does not care about the first question. Will it
>> affect the way the personal image filter will be implemented? For
>> example: Not for all projects. A different implementation as suggested
>> inside the "image filter referendum".
>> * Will there be an attempt to follow this example and to question other
>> communities the same question?
>>
>> Greetings from
>> Tobias Oelgarte
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter
>> [2]
>>
>> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Einf%C3%BChrung_pers%C3%B6nlicher_Bildfilter#Auswertung
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
Am 16.09.2011 12:42, schrieb Milos Rancic:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:39, emijrp<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I think that we can do a nice move here. We can enable image filter in
>> German Wikipedia for all those who don't want to see
>> copyrighted-images-for-German-law, meanwhile allowing other people to see
>> all Commons splendour. Using the image filter to improve the rights of
>> readers of German Wikipedia. Very cool, right? ; )
> Oh, you found the first useful purpose of the image filter!
He did not. Optionally hiding of the image wouldn't make it legal. The
filter has nothing to do with this case.

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Oliver Koslowski
In reply to this post by Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
Am 16.09.2011 12:39, schrieb emijrp:
> There are more issues with images in German Wikipedia.
>
And on the other hand pictures are deleted from Commons because there is
no FOP in the country where the pictures was taken.

Regards,
Oliver

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Re: 86% of german users disagree with the introduction of the personal image filter

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
In reply to this post by Tobias Oelgarte
2011/9/16 Tobias Oelgarte <[hidden email]>

> That is an legal issue. We do that to comply with the law, since that
> image isn't in public domain under German jurisdiction.
>

Who is "we"? And, why does German jurisdiction matter here?
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