A general wiki list?

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A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.

For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
there.

And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
wiki world.

Anyone against it? :)

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Re: A general wiki list?

Erik Moeller-4
On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
...
> And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> wiki world.

I think many people would actually be a bit flustered if we tried to
create a "neutral" wiki discussion list. A better place for that seems
to me a site like wiki.org, which is operated by Ward Cunningham.
Perhaps you should ask him if he'd be willing to host it?

--
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
On 8/22/07, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think many people would actually be a bit flustered if we tried to
> create a "neutral" wiki discussion list. A better place for that seems
> to me a site like wiki.org, which is operated by Ward Cunningham.
> Perhaps you should ask him if he'd be willing to host it?

While I still think that such list should be hosted by WM and that
there are a number of reasons why it should be, I realize that the
situation is not clear enough and that it is the best to open the list
somewhere else.

So, I asked ibiblio for a list and supporting wiki, because I think
that it is the most neutral territory. However, if some similar
project grows (or it is grown, but for now unknown), merging two
projects will be desired.

Angela told me about spreadwiki.org project which is still in
development phase. As the goals of that project are to spread and help
in adoption of wiki technology, it is very close to the aim of the
list which I want to make. However, I think that making list and it's
supporting wiki have very simple requirements (software and
organizational) and that it is possible to be made immediately. So,
when spreadwiki starts to exist on the net, we may merge projects.

And there are some more points:

- List/wiki should be administrated by delegates of all major wiki
projects (what is major wiki project?) or by delegates of delegates.
Is someone else interested in definitions and organization? Related to
this, some balance between participating projects and people
participating in the projects should be found (it shouldn't be good
that WM projects eat all others because of the number of contributors,
but it shouldn't be good that WM is represented like projects with 10
contributors).
- List/wiki should be promoted on the participating wikis as a general one.
- The goal of the list/wiki is to gather different ideas related to
the wiki concept. So, it is preferable to give to different people
possibility to talk. However, it shouldn't be used for bizarre and
nonsense ideas as well as it shouldn't be used for hate speech and
similar things. This means that while a majority of wiki projects are
welcome in the administrating body, some of them are not, for sure (a
week or two ago I think that someone pointed to one of such wikis; I
forgot the name of the wiki).
- People from ibiblio are fast and it seems that the project will be
up today. However, some more discussion here would be a good idea.

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Re: A general wiki list?

Brianna Laugher
On 23/08/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And there are some more points:
>
> - List/wiki should be administrated by delegates of all major wiki
> projects (what is major wiki project?) or by delegates of delegates.

I don't think it's necessary; just get a moderator who will jump on
people who are hostile. (And no I'm not volunteering :)) You can
hardly mandate membership requirements for an open mailing list.

I'm not sure if you intend this to be for all users/developers of all
wiki engines, or all editors on all specific wiki sites. Either way,
there are some interesting things out there I'm sure we could learn
from.

cheers
Brianna

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
On 8/23/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't think it's necessary; just get a moderator who will jump on
> people who are hostile. (And no I'm not volunteering :)) You can
> hardly mandate membership requirements for an open mailing list.

The intention was just to show that the list shouldn't be a dominated
by one group, but also to find some model against destructive people.
And to put it into one rule. It seems that I am too much influenced by
continental way of generating social rules ;) As you say...

> I'm not sure if you intend this to be for all users/developers of all
> wiki engines, or all editors on all specific wiki sites. Either way,
> there are some interesting things out there I'm sure we could learn
> from.

I think that it should be a llist of all users and developers of all
wiki engines.

My primary intention was to make a place where people would be able to
talk about wiki projects in general (or particular, whatever), but not
related exclusively to WM projects. Even I am for a long time well
introduced where to ask what, I completely understand frustration of
the people who are trying to give some idea and to discuss about it,
but very soon they realize that anything which is not related to WM is
off topic here. So, wider community needs a general list where such
talks will not be off topic.

But, while thinking about the list (and supporting wiki) I realized
that they may be used fo a number of other interesting things.

For example, while MediaWiki today is growing into a dominant wiki
engine, I think that pywikipediabot is the core of a new generation
wiki engine which should replace MW in some future. But, even it is
safe to say that both projects are WM projects, there is no list to
discuss about that (mediawiki is for MediaWiki, wikitech is for
Wikimedia related technical things, pywikipedia is for a
pywikipediabot; maybe wikiresearch? but how many developers of MW and
pwb are there?).

Or, I think that MediaWiki is better software for revision control
then CVS/SVN. And there is no place to talk about it wider. I would
like to talk about it with, for example, some Apache developer
generally interested in wiki concept. And it is hard to say that such
person is willing to be on MW list and catches interesting things from
99% talk about MW features and bugs.

Those were my today's thoughts :) And I am sure that there are a lot
of things related to wiki concept which are simply off topic at the
most of wiki places.

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Re: A general wiki list?

Casey Brown-3
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
There is a list on MediaWiki.org of wikis that use the MediaWiki software
somewhere.

On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
>
> For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
> wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
> talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
> want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
> there.
>
> And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> wiki world.
>
> Anyone against it? :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
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Cbrown1023

---
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to
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Re: A general wiki list?

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Angela told me about spreadwiki.org project which is still in
> development phase.

Did you get that url right?  spreadwiki.org looks like a spamdexing site.

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Re: A general wiki list?

Debbie Garside
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
I think there should be rules of participation within any mailing list.
There are always one or two people who are intent upon upsetting the
applecart.

FYI Herewith the (proposed) rules that have been formulated by the General
Assembly of the GNSO within ICANN.

www.geolang.com/draftGAListRules5.htm

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Milos Rancic
> Sent: 23 August 2007 03:02
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A general wiki list?
>
> On 8/23/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I don't think it's necessary; just get a moderator who will jump on
> > people who are hostile. (And no I'm not volunteering :)) You can
> > hardly mandate membership requirements for an open mailing list.
>
> The intention was just to show that the list shouldn't be a
> dominated by one group, but also to find some model against
> destructive people.
> And to put it into one rule. It seems that I am too much
> influenced by continental way of generating social rules ;)
> As you say...
>
> > I'm not sure if you intend this to be for all
> users/developers of all
> > wiki engines, or all editors on all specific wiki sites.
> Either way,
> > there are some interesting things out there I'm sure we could learn
> > from.
>
> I think that it should be a llist of all users and developers
> of all wiki engines.
>
> My primary intention was to make a place where people would
> be able to talk about wiki projects in general (or
> particular, whatever), but not related exclusively to WM
> projects. Even I am for a long time well introduced where to
> ask what, I completely understand frustration of the people
> who are trying to give some idea and to discuss about it, but
> very soon they realize that anything which is not related to
> WM is off topic here. So, wider community needs a general
> list where such talks will not be off topic.
>
> But, while thinking about the list (and supporting wiki) I
> realized that they may be used fo a number of other
> interesting things.
>
> For example, while MediaWiki today is growing into a dominant
> wiki engine, I think that pywikipediabot is the core of a new
> generation wiki engine which should replace MW in some
> future. But, even it is safe to say that both projects are WM
> projects, there is no list to discuss about that (mediawiki
> is for MediaWiki, wikitech is for Wikimedia related technical
> things, pywikipedia is for a pywikipediabot; maybe
> wikiresearch? but how many developers of MW and pwb are there?).
>
> Or, I think that MediaWiki is better software for revision
> control then CVS/SVN. And there is no place to talk about it
> wider. I would like to talk about it with, for example, some
> Apache developer generally interested in wiki concept. And it
> is hard to say that such person is willing to be on MW list
> and catches interesting things from 99% talk about MW
> features and bugs.
>
> Those were my today's thoughts :) And I am sure that there
> are a lot of things related to wiki concept which are simply
> off topic at the most of wiki places.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>





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Re: A general wiki list?

Gary Kirk
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-3
http://mediawiki.org/wiki/Sites_using_MediaWiki

On 8/23/07, Casey Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is a list on MediaWiki.org of wikis that use the MediaWiki software
> somewhere.
>
> On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> > used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
> >
> > For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
> > wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
> > talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
> > want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
> > there.
> >
> > And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> > wiki world.
> >
> > Anyone against it? :)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Casey Brown
> Cbrown1023
>
> ---
> Note:  This e-mail address is used for mailing lists.  Personal emails sent
> to
> this address will probably get lost.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


--
Gary Kirk

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Re: A general wiki list?

Angela-5
In reply to this post by Anthony-73
On 8/23/07, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Did you get that url right?  spreadwiki.org looks like a spamdexing site.

It hasn't launched yet. That's just the screen you get when you buy a
domain and haven't yet put anything there.

Angela

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Re: A general wiki list?

Dirk Riehle-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
Hi Milos,

this has been tried, with little or no success. My feeling was that
there simply is too little that motivates people to join and contribute
on a general list. Or maybe marketing wasn't good enough.

The Wiki Symposium has a couple of lists:

1. wiki-research
2. wiki-standards
3. wikisym-announce

Only list 3 is Wiki Symposium specific.

Then there is the Semantic Mediawiki list (swikg). Max Voelkel had
created a general list (wikig) in 2006 list but it died quickly due to
lack of interest. For that reason, I never created a wiki-general list
on the WikiSym mailing list server.

I don't want to be too pessimistic, but what has changed? What specific
topics would you discuss on a general list?

Thanks,
Dirk

Milos Rancic wrote:

> I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
>
> For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
> wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
> talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
> want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
> there.
>
> And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> wiki world.
>
> Anyone against it? :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>  

--
http://www.riehle.org



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Re: A general wiki list?

metasj
In reply to this post by Anthony-73

I like the idea of a wikimedia list about wikis in general, as concept,
philosophy, methodology, community type, and tool that has been well used
in many ways -- to further the shared goals of the wikimedia foundation,
the wikipedia community, and its sister communities.

It would not quite be the same as a 'spreadwiki' list outside of
wikimedia, but a fine place for discussion about wikis in general,
something which illuminated much of the first years of Wikipedia's
community and content development.

SJ
--
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One Laptop per Child      [hidden email]        wiki.laptop.org/go/Content


On Thu, 23 Aug 2007, Anthony wrote:

> On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Angela told me about spreadwiki.org project which is still in
>> development phase.
>
> Did you get that url right?  spreadwiki.org looks like a spamdexing site.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Dirk Riehle-2
On 8/23/07, Dirk Riehle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> this has been tried, with little or no success. My feeling was that
> there simply is too little that motivates people to join and contribute
> on a general list. Or maybe marketing wasn't good enough.

It seems that it is about marketing. I am active in wiki communities
since the first half of 2004 and I didn't hear for wikisym. OK, I am
not perfectly informed, but this makes me as a very good example.

Actually, if I knew for wikisym and your lists, I wouldn't ask ibiblio
for the list because your project seems to me neutral enough. (Please,
wait for a couple of days, I want to see what is going on with
ibiblio. It is reasonable to use your project as a base for the list
and a supporting wiki.)

Such general list should be recognized by other wiki projects as a
common good. This means that page like
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/overview is (aka
http://lists.wikimedia.org/) should have such list(s) at the first
place (or after the most important like foundation-l and wikipedia-l
are). And on other project, too.

> I don't want to be too pessimistic, but what has changed? What specific
> topics would you discuss on a general list?

Wikimedia development teach us very good about steps of making lists.
First of all, we need a general list, then, if discussion spread into
a couple of important fields, lists should be separated.

I feel that we need a general list to talk about  (all of the subjects
are off topic on WM lists):

- "I have a good idea for a wiki project and I want to talk with tother"
- This wiki engine has very good features and it would be good if that
wiki engine adopt those features.
- Yes, standards. AFAIK, only tiki-wiki syntax is RFC'd. But, MW
syntax is de facto standard and it is easier to use. And it is not
reasonable to have a tone of dialects. We need both: RFC and ISO.
- We need, also, to define standard features of one wiki engine. For
example, I think that "recent changes" feature has to be a standard as
well as comparing two versions of one article.
- As SJ mentioned, we need a general list to talk about wiki
philosophy, too. (Actually, "philosophy" is maybe a hard word; but a
lot of meta issues related to philosophy are important to talk about:
What are social responsibilities of one wiki contributor? Did wiki
bring something new to the society and if it did, what did it bring?
...
- Cooperation between different projects. For example, I want to keep
merged a set of articles related to the Green Party of Canada between
my fictional wiki and wiki of GPC. If we made a deal about such
merging, we need a place where to announce it.
- (and so on)

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-3
On 8/23/07, Casey Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is a list on MediaWiki.org of wikis that use the MediaWiki software
> somewhere.

Yes, this is the most relevant list for MW sites. However, a general
list should consist projects which uses other wiki engines.

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
Finally, the project is almost started. However, we need to wait for a
while for a mailing list. Wiki is up
(http://www.ibiblio.org/wikiworld/), even it is not the central part
of the project. (However, it is useful for gathering ideas from the
mailing list.)

Starting FAQ is available here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/wikiworld/index.php/Wiki_World:FAQ

Some more explanations (including an FAQ) are available here:
http://millosh.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/wiki-world-almost-started/

And there are a couple of issues related to Wikimedia:

- When the list would be ready, I think that it should stay somewhere
at the first half of the   page
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/overview (aka
http://lists.wikimedia.org/). Any objection?

- While wiki is important only as a repository of resources and ideas,
I think that it should also be mentioned *somewhere* inside of
Wikimedia/Wikipedia manuals. However, I don't have an idea where.

I'll make a wider announce when list becomes ready.

On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
>
> For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
> wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
> talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
> want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
> there.
>
> And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> wiki world.
>
> Anyone against it? :)
>

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Re: A general wiki list?

Milos Rancic-2
The list is finally up. All interested in general discussions about
wikis may join via http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiworld

I'll start with announcing list on other places as soon as possible.

Also, anyone interested in the initial managing the project may contact me.

On 8/28/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Finally, the project is almost started. However, we need to wait for a
> while for a mailing list. Wiki is up
> (http://www.ibiblio.org/wikiworld/), even it is not the central part
> of the project. (However, it is useful for gathering ideas from the
> mailing list.)
>
> Starting FAQ is available here:
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wikiworld/index.php/Wiki_World:FAQ
>
> Some more explanations (including an FAQ) are available here:
> http://millosh.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/wiki-world-almost-started/
>
> And there are a couple of issues related to Wikimedia:
>
> - When the list would be ready, I think that it should stay somewhere
> at the first half of the   page
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/overview (aka
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/). Any objection?
>
> - While wiki is important only as a repository of resources and ideas,
> I think that it should also be mentioned *somewhere* inside of
> Wikimedia/Wikipedia manuals. However, I don't have an idea where.
>
> I'll make a wider announce when list becomes ready.
>
> On 8/22/07, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I think that community needs a general wiki list. Such list would be
> > used for wiki projects in general, not only for WM projects.
> >
> > For example, if someone wants to discuss about his/her idea for a new
> > wiki project, (s)he needs a general place to do that. In general, such
> > talks on wikipedia-l or foundation-l lists are off topic. Or if people
> > want to talk in general about wiki projects, it should be discussed
> > there.
> >
> > And I think that it should be hosted by WM because it is the center of
> > wiki world.
> >
> > Anyone against it? :)
> >
>

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