A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

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A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
This article is painful
 
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Warenne,_1st_Earl_of_Surrey_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Warenne,_1st_Earl_of_Surrey)
 
I can't believe someone did this.
Plateful of notes anyone?  You can have seconds, we have lots to  spare!
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

David Goodman
and what part is nonsense: the list of estates os basic information in
historical geography, and I'm glad we 're including this. That
information is available for all Domesday landholders, and though
Domesday itself belongs on Wikisource, the material from it organized
in a suitable way likethis belongs right here  in Wikipedia.
The time has finally come when amateurs can do this right.

David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG



On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:45 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This article is painful
>
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Warenne,_1st_Earl_of_Surrey_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Warenne,_1st_Earl_of_Surrey)
>
> I can't believe someone did this.
> Plateful of notes anyone?  You can have seconds, we have lots to  spare!
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
> **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219799634x1201361008/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubl
> eclick.net%2Fclk%3B214133440%3B36002254%3Bj)
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
The Nonsense is that this article is completely swamped by citations to  
land holdings.
 
That's not a balanced treatment of the man's life.
This article is not supposed to be about his Domesday holdings which are  
completely insignificant historically, it is supposed to be his biography.
 
We do not use this treatment in general for our biographical entries, and  
we shouldn't set the pace with this article.  I would suggest, moving all  
the holdings to WikiSource and just pointing at them.  That would be more  
normative for this sort of documentary evidence.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by David Goodman
David Goodman wrote:
> and what part is nonsense: the list of estates os basic information in
> historical geography, and I'm glad we 're including this. That
> information is available for all Domesday landholders, and though
> Domesday itself belongs on Wikisource, the material from it organized
> in a suitable way likethis belongs right here  in Wikipedia.
> The time has finally come when amateurs can do this right.
>
>  
Oh, I think the comment was prompted by the reference formatting.
Besides bypassing sofixit, targeting a constructive editor, bringing a
comment to the list for random reasons, showing ignorance of our customs
and purpose, and causing at least one edit conflict, it was a perfectly
fine thing to say.

Charles


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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:19:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Oh, I  think the comment was prompted by the reference formatting.
Besides  bypassing sofixit, targeting a constructive editor, bringing a
comment to  the list for random reasons, showing ignorance of our customs
and purpose,  and causing at least one edit conflict, it was a perfectly
fine thing to  say.

Charles>>


----------------
 
Not the "formatting" mr snidely snide-a-lot.
The number of citations, their purposelessness and their overweight.
Do you think it's important to the project to list every land transaction  
some medieval person had?  Some of them had hundreds.  Should we list  them
all in-project?
 
No we should not.
 
Will
 
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by WJhonson
[hidden email] wrote:
> The Nonsense is that this article is completely swamped by citations to  
> land holdings.
>  
> That's not a balanced treatment of the man's life.
> This article is not supposed to be about his Domesday holdings which are  
> completely insignificant historically, it is supposed to be his biography.
>  
Sorry, you hold what qualification in medieval history to make this
comment?  What do you think the so-called "feudal system" was about if
not the holding of land, which made up most of the economy of Europe
from say 600 to at least 1600?

Feel free to expand the remainder of the article.

Charles



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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:34:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Sorry,  you hold what qualification in medieval history to make this  
comment?  What do you think the so-called "feudal system" was about  if
not the holding of land, which made up most of the economy of Europe  
from say 600 to at least 1600? >>
--------------------
 
Not the point.
This article is not about the feudal system, not about an example of a  
person with a hundred plots of land.  It's about one person, their  life.  Not
their land holdings.
 
By the way.  I didn't "target a constructive editor".  I did not  look, and
don't make it a habit to look at *who* edited an article.  It's a  waste of
time.  The article is the thing, not the people behind it.
 
This article is poor.  Whether it's a good example of the feudal  system or
not (and it's not) isn't relevant to whether it's a good example of a  
stubby biography (which it's not).
 
Will
 
 

 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Peter Coombe
2009/4/23  <[hidden email]>:

> In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:34:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> Sorry,  you hold what qualification in medieval history to make this
> comment?  What do you think the so-called "feudal system" was about  if
> not the holding of land, which made up most of the economy of Europe
> from say 600 to at least 1600? >>
> --------------------
>
> Not the point.
> This article is not about the feudal system, not about an example of a
> person with a hundred plots of land.  It's about one person, their  life.  Not
> their land holdings.
>
> By the way.  I didn't "target a constructive editor".  I did not  look, and
> don't make it a habit to look at *who* edited an article.  It's a  waste of
> time.  The article is the thing, not the people behind it.
>
> This article is poor.  Whether it's a good example of the feudal  system or
> not (and it's not) isn't relevant to whether it's a good example of a
> stubby biography (which it's not).
>
> Will

As Charles said, the landholding information is important and relevant
for this person in the context of when they lived. At the moment
though it does rather overwhelm the rest of the article, because of
the extent and the formatting. As a compromise, how about putting it
inside a hidey box, set to hide by default? {{hidden}} The citations
could be cut down by moving the full Domesday book reference into
==References== similar to the other books, and in-line citing just
page numbers.

In fact, I think I'll go try that now.

Pete / the wub

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:03:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

At the  moment
though it does rather overwhelm the rest of the article, because  of
the extent and the formatting. As a compromise, how about putting  it
inside a hidey box, set to hide by default? {{hidden}}


---------------
 
That's an excellent idea.  I have no idea how to code that myself, so  I'm
glad you're going to give it a shot.
 
Will
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:37 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not the point.
> This article is not about the feudal system, not about an example of a
> person with a hundred plots of land.  It's about one person, their  life.  Not
> their land holdings.
>
> By the way.  I didn't "target a constructive editor".  I did not  look, and
> don't make it a habit to look at *who* edited an article.  It's a  waste of
> time.  The article is the thing, not the people behind it.
>
> This article is poor.  Whether it's a good example of the feudal  system or
> not (and it's not) isn't relevant to whether it's a good example of a
> stubby biography (which it's not).
>
> Will

First off all, this is not the place to bring this issue to light.
Articles have edit-buttons and talk-pages for a reason. If you feel
the article is poorly done, we have plenty of avenues for you to try
and do something about it. This mailing-list cannot function if every
problem someone has with any article is brought up here. Here is where
we discuss general issues concerning wikipedia, not small problems
with individual articles.

Second, I'm very vary of arguments that go "this information shouldn't
be in wikipedia", especially in cases like this where there is no
doubt of the factual basis, no problem with sources, the notability of
the article in question is firmly established and the information is
completely uncontroversial. Why shouldn't it be in the article?
Wikipedia is not paper, if we can have an article on every Simpsons
episode, why not include this information?

It's not an unthinkable scenario to imagine a person wanting to know
the land-holdings of this particular earl, and going to wikipedia to
find out. Why shouldn't we provide that information?

It seems to me you are essentially making a stylistic argument, like
"the article looks strange with this list at the bottom". But I don't
quite see it. The biography is there, the family and intro is there,
and the list doesn't make it any harder to read. If it really did
clutter up the article, I suppose you could make a separate "List of
landholdings by William de Warenne" and link it, but I think the
information works just fine where it is.

--Oskar

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:04 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:03:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> At the  moment
> though it does rather overwhelm the rest of the article, because  of
> the extent and the formatting. As a compromise, how about putting  it
> inside a hidey box, set to hide by default? {{hidden}}
>
>
> ---------------
>
> That's an excellent idea.  I have no idea how to code that myself, so  I'm
> glad you're going to give it a shot.

Indeed it is a good idea, and I have implemented it.

Sam

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:09:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Why  shouldn't it be in the article?
Wikipedia is not paper, if we can have an  article on every Simpsons
episode, why not include this  information?>>>
-------------------
 
Undue... Weight.
No biographer past their Intro Class would write something like this.
 
Whether a list of every town Bill Clinton visited exists, does not mean we  
should host it in his biography.
 
In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of "biography" if you  
will, and *six* pages of this nonsense.  That's just a tad overweight I  think
we can all agree on that point.
 
Will Johnson
 
 

 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

David Gerard-2
2009/4/23  <[hidden email]>:

> In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of "biography" if you
> will, and *six* pages of this nonsense.  That's just a tad overweight I  think
> we can all agree on that point.


The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.


- d.

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by WJhonson
[hidden email] wrote:

> In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:34:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>     Sorry, you hold what qualification in medieval history to make this
>     comment?  What do you think the so-called "feudal system" was
>     about if
>     not the holding of land, which made up most of the economy of Europe
>     from say 600 to at least 1600? >>
>
> --------------------
>  
> Not the point.
> This article is not about the feudal system, not about an example of a
> person with a hundred plots of land.  It's about one person, their
> life.  Not their land holdings.
>  
> By the way.  I didn't "target a constructive editor".  I did not look,
> and don't make it a habit to look at *who* edited an article.  It's a
> waste of time.  The article is the thing, not the people behind it.
>  
> This article is poor.  Whether it's a good example of the feudal
> system or not (and it's not) isn't relevant to whether it's a good
> example of a stubby biography (which it's not).
>
You cut the comment where you claimed the land holdings were
insignificant: "his Domesday holdings which are completely insignificant
historically,

They weren't.

How is writing "This article is painful ... I can't believe someone did
this" not targetting a good-faith editor adding verifiable, factual and
relevant information to Wikipedia?

You go back in my killfile.

Charles





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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:20:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

The  solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land  holdings.>>


--------------
 
If someone had any.  I never suggested "discarding" the land  information.  
I suggested moving it to WikiSource or an alternate  article.  In this
article it's Undue Weight.  However I am happy to  have it scrolled up, that is
fine.
 
Will
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
2009/4/23 David Gerard <[hidden email]>

> 2009/4/23  <[hidden email]>:
>
> > In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of "biography" if you
> > will, and *six* pages of this nonsense.  That's just a tad overweight I
>  think
> > we can all agree on that point.
>
>
> The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.


More bio would obviously be fine, but I don't agree that that there is a
problem to be solved here.

If it bothers you there is too much "of this nonsense", don't read it. That
"nonsense" to you may be much more important to someone else.

"Undue weight" is not an issue either. The article is not asserting that the
"nonsense" is more important than anything else in the man's life. It is
what it is: a reference list.

Michel
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography.
We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing  
biographies.
 
I was not targeting any particular editor.  I was targeting the  article.
 
 
Will
 
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:23:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

"Undue  weight" is not an issue either. The article is not asserting that  
the
"nonsense" is more important than anything else in the man's life. It  is
what it is: a reference list.>>


---------------------------------------------
Our article on Undue Weight is not trying to address "importance"  exactly.
 It is trying to address the presentation of a balanced view, a  balanced
content, a balanced perspective.
 
Balance is not about what is more important.
We would like to present biographies that mimic in some way, what the world
 expects when it hears the word "biography".  If I write a biography of  
Henry Fonda, that has three pages of "biographical details and stories" and 16
 pages of a list of all the clothes hanging in his closet the day he died,
I  would be stoned by a mob.
 
Anyone who doesn't see that, has probably never worked as a  biographer.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by WJhonson
2009/4/23 <[hidden email]>

> The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography.
> We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing
> biographies.
>

We are writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information
from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge.
We are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of biographies.

Michel
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Carcharoth
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:19 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2009/4/23  <[hidden email]>:
>
>> In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of "biography" if you
>> will, and *six* pages of this nonsense.  That's just a tad overweight I  think
>> we can all agree on that point.
>
>
> The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.

There might not *be* any more bio. Sometimes you can only have stub
biographies, which torpedoes Will's argument to do a biography by the
numbers, with carefully weighted sections. Personally, a stub bio and
a link to a list of his holdings would have been sufficient for me,
but the way it has been done is OK as well.

Carcharoth

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