A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Peter Coombe
2009/4/23 Sam Korn <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:04 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:03:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>> [hidden email] writes:
>>
>> At the  moment
>> though it does rather overwhelm the rest of the article, because  of
>> the extent and the formatting. As a compromise, how about putting  it
>> inside a hidey box, set to hide by default? {{hidden}}
>>
>>
>> ---------------
>>
>> That's an excellent idea.  I have no idea how to code that myself, so  I'm
>> glad you're going to give it a shot.
>
> Indeed it is a good idea, and I have implemented it.
>
> Sam
>

Thanks Sam. I've also consolidated the Domesday references, hopefully
it's looking a bit tidier now. I suggest that any further discussion
should take place on the article talk page, where it should have been
in the first place.

Pete / the wub

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 4/23/2009 3:31:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

We are  writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information
from  either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge.
We  are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of  biographies.>>


Right.  But this particular article is a biography.
Any article on "person X" is a biography of person X.
If we want an article on their Land Holdings, we should have that as  well.
 
 
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Oskar Sigvardsson
2009/4/23 Oskar Sigvardsson <[hidden email]>:

> First off all, this is not the place to bring this issue to light.
> Articles have edit-buttons and talk-pages for a reason. If you feel
> the article is poorly done, we have plenty of avenues for you to try
> and do something about it. This mailing-list cannot function if every
> problem someone has with any article is brought up here. Here is where
> we discuss general issues concerning wikipedia, not small problems
> with individual articles.


Oh, I think the discussion's so far been relevant to the wider issues
Will considers this article an example of.


- d.

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Carcharoth
In reply to this post by Michel Vuijlsteke-2
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/4/23 <[hidden email]>
>
>> The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography.
>> We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing
>> biographies.
>>
>
> We are writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information
> from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge.
> We are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of biographies.

Uh...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography

Biography writing is certainly one way of writing articles about people.

There was a template to do biography-by-the-numbers, but it might have
got deleted. Several WikiProjects do have "fill in the blanks" article
templates. They tend to do more harm than good, IMO.

Carcharoth

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

David Goodman
In a couintry where importance wa rought proportional to the amount of
property one owned and where it was located, a list of the propertyies
is highly relevant. There are multiple books discussing in detail the
landholdings of individual proprietors and the pattern of landholding
in general. This is the basic historical information. If he had owned
one compact estate, we would surely list it. As he owned a hundred,
just as much reason. Some thought could have been given to how to
present the references more compactly, but the information is
encyclopedic . since the information is available for every Domesday
landowner in the counties covered, I hope for more such articles. I
think there are a few thousand.

This list is just a start in the encyclopedic treatment. There needs
to be a discussion for each one of them of when they were acquired, of
their extent, and of what happened to them. The place for this is
probably in the articles on the individual locations., thus
buildingthe web--and probing that all geographic places  even
villages, do have something to be said about them.

How many events in his life should be covered? Not as much as in a
book about him, no. We might not list ''every'' charter he signed or
witnessed, as an historian would, or use them to reconstruct his
itinerary.  We should describe his tomb, we would not use the detail
that an art historian would in a monograph about it.  Though we would
mention his relatives, we would not put in long sections about their
later career , as an historian would to give context--this context
will be in other articles.  But the property he owned is as basic as
anything else about a feudal lord. The desire to remove it indicates
an absences of historical perspective, at the least. Wikipedia  is not
aimed as a scholarly encyclopedia, but we should not disdain
scholarship when we have it available.

The hardest concept for many of the people working at Wikipedia is not
NPOV, or even the need for sources.  it's NOT PAPER.


 The relevant policy,, as always remains, NOT PAPER
BTW, I think there is consensus against using collapsable boxes for
article content. It impairs universal access.



David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG



On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Carcharoth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2009/4/23 <[hidden email]>
>>
>>> The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography.
>>> We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing
>>> biographies.
>>>
>>
>> We are writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information
>> from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge.
>> We are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of biographies.
>
> Uh...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography
>
> Biography writing is certainly one way of writing articles about people.
>
> There was a template to do biography-by-the-numbers, but it might have
> got deleted. Several WikiProjects do have "fill in the blanks" article
> templates. They tend to do more harm than good, IMO.
>
> Carcharoth
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
I would say the place for a discussion of each piece of land he owned,
would be in individual articles detailing how a piece of land passed, hand to
hand, family to family, over the medieval period perhaps.

That alone would cover several pages, with copious footnotes, for *each*
property.

That is, provided we could actually do that with the surviving records.

Will




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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Oldak
In reply to this post by WJhonson
2009/4/23  <[hidden email]>:

> In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:34:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> Sorry,  you hold what qualification in medieval history to make this
> comment?  What do you think the so-called "feudal system" was about  if
> not the holding of land, which made up most of the economy of Europe
> from say 600 to at least 1600? >>
> --------------------
>
> Not the point.
> This article is not about the feudal system, not about an example of a
> person with a hundred plots of land.  It's about one person, their  life.  Not
> their land holdings.

As an article about a Norman noble who is significant because of his
role in a feudal system, it is important to list landholdings in the
article. Without the landholdings, he wouldn't be a Norman noble (or
would be a less notable one), which is what the feudal system was all
about. Similarly, if a businessman were famous today for being a
businessman, it would make sense to list the companies he has been a
CEO of.

As David said above, it is a short article, so his landholdings take a
up a large portion of it. Just add more biographical information.

--
Oldak Quill ([hidden email])

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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
In a message dated 4/23/2009 12:16:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Similarly, if a businessman were famous today for being a
> businessman, it would make sense to list the companies he has been a
> CEO of.
>
> As David said above, it is a short article, so his landholdings take a
> up a large portion of it. Just add more biographical information.>>

-------------
If a businessman were famous for being a businessman, would it make sense
to list *every* company he has worked for, from the age of 16 onward.  That
is the issue.  Not whether you list the most prominent companies.  Whether
you list *all* of them.

That is the very heart of Undue Weight.  When you write a biography, you do
not include every minute detail of every minute aspect of a person's life.  
Not even hard-bound biographies do this.  Certainly in 8 pages, you would
weight the *differing* aspects of a person's life correspondingly, not
focusing on a single aspect with a lead anchor, while the others are treated with
a feather.

As  far as adding more details... you are assuming they exist.  I would
submit that anyone who wants to research this man, do so.  You will find that
those details simply do not exist.  We know very little truly about him
directly.  The vast majority of what's been written about him (which is skant) is
based on suppositions and background color, not on actual documentary
evidence.

This is a moot point.  I am satisfied with the rolled-up listings.

Will




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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Falcorian
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Absolutely.

--Falcorian

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:19 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

Carcharoth
Let's come back in a year and see how much more the bio bits have been
expanded by.

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Falcorian
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Absolutely.
>
> --Falcorian
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:19 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
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