ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

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ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

David Gerard-2
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/

They're actually gathering money to fight free content.

We may need to do something about this.


- d.

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

James Alexander-3
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
>
> They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
>
> We may need to do something about this.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
I can at least understand them having issue with EFF and the like but the
article is right: going against Creative Commons is laughable. How DARE you
decide to release your own content into the public sphere, how DARE YOU! /me
sighs

James Alexander
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

David Gerard-2
On 25 June 2010 23:15, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
>> They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
>> We may need to do something about this.

> I can at least understand them having issue with EFF and the like but the
> article is right: going against Creative Commons is laughable. How DARE you
> decide to release your own content into the public sphere, how DARE YOU! /me
> sighs


"Laughable" it may be to us, but they're trying to gather actual
lobbying dollars to block the use of such licences. I do think we need
to say "er, no" nice and early.


- d.

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

geni
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 25 June 2010 23:04, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
>
> They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
>
> We may need to do something about this.
>
>
> - d.

They are effectively trying to fight contract law though which is
unlikely to end will for them.



--
geni

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear David,

I'm going to donate to their cause.

Music lyrics, just like poems and novels, should not be stolen and published
everywhere, and yet it is. It is people like you that give the internet a
bad name. I produce my own content and donate it because I chose to. You
promote the taking of others who have not consented. To use this list to
promote your own selfish desires bothers me.

I would think it would only be right for you to lose access to this list for
acting so inappropriately.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:35 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 June 2010 23:04, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
> >
> > They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
> >
> > We may need to do something about this.
> >
> >
> > - d.
>
> They are effectively trying to fight contract law though which is
> unlikely to end will for them.
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Ryan Kaldari-2
Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following you.

Ryan Kaldari

On 6/25/10 3:42 PM, Jeffrey Peters wrote:

> Dear David,
>
> I'm going to donate to their cause.
>
> Music lyrics, just like poems and novels, should not be stolen and published
> everywhere, and yet it is. It is people like you that give the internet a
> bad name. I produce my own content and donate it because I chose to. You
> promote the taking of others who have not consented. To use this list to
> promote your own selfish desires bothers me.
>
> I would think it would only be right for you to lose access to this list for
> acting so inappropriately.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jeffrey Peters
> aka Ottava Rima
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:35 PM, geni<[hidden email]>  wrote:

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear Ryan,

Creative Commons is two things: 1. a license, which only applies to
non-pirated work, and 2. those like Gerard who believe in removing copyright
as a whole and try to hide illegitimate actions behind legitimate ones.
There are thousands of websites that illegally republish music lyrics,
poems, books, etc.

The law that is desired would make it so those people lose access. Not those
who own their own music, but that which is copyrighted.

Those are the only people that could be targeted.

To try and use this email server to push for a protection of piracy is
disgusting, immoral, and inappropriate in any manner. It needs to stop
immediately.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following
> you.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
> On 6/25/10 3:42 PM, Jeffrey Peters wrote:
> > Dear David,
> >
> > I'm going to donate to their cause.
> >
> > Music lyrics, just like poems and novels, should not be stolen and
> published
> > everywhere, and yet it is. It is people like you that give the internet a
> > bad name. I produce my own content and donate it because I chose to. You
> > promote the taking of others who have not consented. To use this list to
> > promote your own selfish desires bothers me.
> >
> > I would think it would only be right for you to lose access to this list
> for
> > acting so inappropriately.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Jeffrey Peters
> > aka Ottava Rima
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:35 PM, geni<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Ryan Kaldari-2
On 25 June 2010 23:46, Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following you.


It only relates to it if someone is trying to derail a thread.


- d.

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
David Gerard,

This list is not for your political advocacy.

Now, stop trolling.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122367645363324303.html

The founder of Creative Commons is a very prominent pirate and promoter of
piracy in addition to CC. That has been established for a long time and he
was proud of that fact.

Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list?

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 June 2010 23:46, Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following
> you.
>
>
> It only relates to it if someone is trying to derail a thread.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Dan Rosenthal
Please stop with the aggressive threats against other users. It's a) not helpful, b) incredibly inappropriate, and c) not your decision anyway.

-Dan
On Jun 25, 2010, at 6:55 PM, Jeffrey Peters wrote:

> David Gerard,
>
> This list is not for your political advocacy.
>
> Now, stop trolling.
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122367645363324303.html
>
> The founder of Creative Commons is a very prominent pirate and promoter of
> piracy in addition to CC. That has been established for a long time and he
> was proud of that fact.
>
> Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list?
>
> Sincerely,
> Jeffrey Peters
> aka Ottava Rima
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 25 June 2010 23:46, Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following
>> you.
>>
>>
>> It only relates to it if someone is trying to derail a thread.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear Dan,

The Foundation-l is not for political advocacy. That is well known. It is
disgusting that someone would attempt to use it for that end.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Dan Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please stop with the aggressive threats against other users. It's a) not
> helpful, b) incredibly inappropriate, and c) not your decision anyway.
>
> -Dan
> On Jun 25, 2010, at 6:55 PM, Jeffrey Peters wrote:
>
> > David Gerard,
> >
> > This list is not for your political advocacy.
> >
> > Now, stop trolling.
> >
> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122367645363324303.html
> >
> > The founder of Creative Commons is a very prominent pirate and promoter
> of
> > piracy in addition to CC. That has been established for a long time and
> he
> > was proud of that fact.
> >
> > Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Jeffrey Peters
> > aka Ottava Rima
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 25 June 2010 23:46, Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Exactly how does Creative Commons steal music lyrics? I'm not following
> >> you.
> >>
> >>
> >> It only relates to it if someone is trying to derail a thread.
> >>
> >>
> >> - d.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

William Pietri

Hi, Jeffery. You are obviously upset about this, and it's coming across
strongly enough in your writing that it undermines the effectiveness of
the point you are trying to make. I see it's pretty hot in DC today.
Perhaps now would be a good time for a cold drink and a break? We'll all
still be here tomorrow.

William

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Michael Snow-3
In reply to this post by James Alexander-3
James Alexander wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
>>
>> They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
>>
>> We may need to do something about this.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>    
> I can at least understand them having issue with EFF and the like but the
> article is right: going against Creative Commons is laughable. How DARE you
> decide to release your own content into the public sphere, how DARE YOU! /me
> sighs
>  
Creative Commons is actually a much bigger threat to their revenue
stream than EFF is, which probably explains the animosity. ASCAP
administers licenses for the music its members create, collects fees
when it is performed, and distributes royalties to members accordingly.
The fees also pay for the costs of administering the system. If the
material is available through alternative licensing channels, it
undermines the ability of ASCAP to make money off of it. It's the same
reason that Getty Images won't allow photos they acquire through their
Flickr deal to remain available under the site's Creative Commons
license options.

The letter looks like garden-variety political fundraising where the
money will mostly go toward campaign contributions for select
politicians (no doubt with an eye on particular congressional
committees). I'm not sure it will be used to hire any actual lobbyists
or mount a specific legislative campaign, although we should certainly
keep an eye out for further developments in that regard. If that does
materialize, I'd be happy to speak out on it in a personal capacity,
whether or not the foundation is in a position to do so.

--Michael Snow

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear Michael,

I find it problematic that you suggest that yourself or the Foundation would
speak out against this, when the law in question is about terminating the
access to those who have been caught pirating material in violation of set
copyright multiple times.

This is problematic because Wikipedia has a huge plagiarism and copyvio
problem that is caused by the same people that would come under conflict
above.

This clearly would not affect those who freely license their own material,
which is what Wikipedia and the WMF is about. I've donated thousands of
hours and hundreds of megs of my own material and my own effort. I find it a
slap in the face that you would then make such statements.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> James Alexander wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/ascap-assails-free-culture-digital-rights-groups/
> >>
> >> They're actually gathering money to fight free content.
> >>
> >> We may need to do something about this.
> >>
> >>
> >> - d.
> >>
> > I can at least understand them having issue with EFF and the like but the
> > article is right: going against Creative Commons is laughable. How DARE
> you
> > decide to release your own content into the public sphere, how DARE YOU!
> /me
> > sighs
> >
> Creative Commons is actually a much bigger threat to their revenue
> stream than EFF is, which probably explains the animosity. ASCAP
> administers licenses for the music its members create, collects fees
> when it is performed, and distributes royalties to members accordingly.
> The fees also pay for the costs of administering the system. If the
> material is available through alternative licensing channels, it
> undermines the ability of ASCAP to make money off of it. It's the same
> reason that Getty Images won't allow photos they acquire through their
> Flickr deal to remain available under the site's Creative Commons
> license options.
>
> The letter looks like garden-variety political fundraising where the
> money will mostly go toward campaign contributions for select
> politicians (no doubt with an eye on particular congressional
> committees). I'm not sure it will be used to hire any actual lobbyists
> or mount a specific legislative campaign, although we should certainly
> keep an eye out for further developments in that regard. If that does
> materialize, I'd be happy to speak out on it in a personal capacity,
> whether or not the foundation is in a position to do so.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
In a message dated 6/25/2010 3:55:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list? >>

Why do I envision the Red Queen and the White Queen when I read that
remark?

David Gerard cut off your own head!  Do it immediately!

But on a lighter note.
Whether or not the owner/author/creator/inventor of CC advocates piracy or
doesn't, is not material at all to what the *contributors* to CC are
actually doing.

As far as "music lyrics", since when can you actually buy the lyrics to any
piece of music, anywhere, ever, at any time, whatsover?

You BUY sheet music, or a song book, or a performance.
I've never, in my entire life, seen "lyrics" for sale by themself.
So please provide a place where they are. Otherwise you cannot protect the
profit from something from which there is no profit and was never intended
to be.

Next caller!

Will "the slammer" Johnson
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear WJhonson,

Lyrics are sometimes included on disk jackets, album covers, etc.

Just because something is not accessible does not mean people have the right
to pirate them, reproduce them, etc. Instead, the rarity of a material would
make it even more legitimate to enforce the copyright.

The lyrics are copyrighted. And you can copyright something and intend not
to sell or distribute it, and you have the right to keep others from
profiting off of it. Otherwise, authors and artists would have no ability to
protect unreleased material, which is insane.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:18 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In a message dated 6/25/2010 3:55:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
> > Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list? >>
>
> Why do I envision the Red Queen and the White Queen when I read that
> remark?
>
> David Gerard cut off your own head!  Do it immediately!
>
> But on a lighter note.
> Whether or not the owner/author/creator/inventor of CC advocates piracy or
> doesn't, is not material at all to what the *contributors* to CC are
> actually doing.
>
> As far as "music lyrics", since when can you actually buy the lyrics to any
> piece of music, anywhere, ever, at any time, whatsover?
>
> You BUY sheet music, or a song book, or a performance.
> I've never, in my entire life, seen "lyrics" for sale by themself.
> So please provide a place where they are. Otherwise you cannot protect the
> profit from something from which there is no profit and was never intended
> to be.
>
> Next caller!
>
> Will "the slammer" Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Ryan Kaldari-2
In reply to this post by WJhonson
I can think of an example where someone had to buy lyrics: When the
creators of the Eyes on The Prize civil rights documentary wanted to
republish their documentary on DVD so that a new generation of people
could see how institutionalized racism was overcome through decades of
bloody struggle, Warner Music demanded that they pay $10,000 for the
right to use a clip of people singing Happy Birthday to Martin Luther
King Jr on his birthday since Warner owned the lyrics to Happy Birthday.
This delayed the republishing of the documentary for years. Fortunately,
the Ford Foundation donated the money so that Warner Brothers could be
properly paid and wouldn't have to resort to begging for change on the
street corner.

Ryan Kaldari

On 6/25/10 4:18 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> In a message dated 6/25/2010 3:55:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>    
>> Do I have to request your termination for abuse of this list?>>
>>      
> Why do I envision the Red Queen and the White Queen when I read that
> remark?
>
> David Gerard cut off your own head!  Do it immediately!
>
> But on a lighter note.
> Whether or not the owner/author/creator/inventor of CC advocates piracy or
> doesn't, is not material at all to what the *contributors* to CC are
> actually doing.
>
> As far as "music lyrics", since when can you actually buy the lyrics to any
> piece of music, anywhere, ever, at any time, whatsover?
>
> You BUY sheet music, or a song book, or a performance.
> I've never, in my entire life, seen "lyrics" for sale by themself.
> So please provide a place where they are. Otherwise you cannot protect the
> profit from something from which there is no profit and was never intended
> to be.
>
> Next caller!
>
> Will "the slammer" Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>    

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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

James Alexander-3
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Peters
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Jeffrey Peters <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Michael,
>
> I find it problematic that you suggest that yourself or the Foundation
> would
> speak out against this, when the law in question is about terminating the
> access to those who have been caught pirating material in violation of set
> copyright multiple times.
>
> This is problematic because Wikipedia has a huge plagiarism and copyvio
> problem that is caused by the same people that would come under conflict
> above.
>
> This clearly would not affect those who freely license their own material,
> which is what Wikipedia and the WMF is about. I've donated thousands of
> hours and hundreds of megs of my own material and my own effort. I find it
> a
> slap in the face that you would then make such statements.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jeffrey Peters
> aka Ottava Rima
>
>
I think that Michael was talking about speaking against them if they were
targeting the CC license itself (he was responding to my comment about the
CC licenses). Given that those are the licenses we use (and that a large
pillar of our projects is having as much of our information available under
licenses like it) it would make sense that we want to be aware of what was
happening and make sure our reasoning was out there.

I, like you, think the issue of the ISP rule is different. In many ways I
actually support the 3 strikes rule .It isn't perfect in my mind but much
better then the lawsuits which I think harmed the industry far more then it
helped. I went to many court cases out of interest and while some were very
interesting (there were a couple people that to be honest probably deserved
to be sued) most were a mass of depression.


James Alexander
[hidden email]
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Jeffrey Peters
Dear James,

If that was what Michael was saying, then I apologize for what I said to
him. However, I think the problem could be is that some people see only what
wired.com says (i.e. targetting Creative Commons, etc) and not the law that
was being passed that the backers of those were in opposition to (i.e. the
anti-piracy law. As I pointed out in the WSJ article, was something Lawrence
Lessig would be against as he wanted, if you read the very end, to end any
enforcement of copyright laws against P2P people, which happens to be
blatant piracy).

I am all for my chosing to release my content without any copyright
restrictions. I am against forcing everyone to do the same, as there is a
lot of content of my own that I do not release freely and I would not want
to be released freely.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Peters
aka Ottava Rima

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:34 PM, James Alexander <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Jeffrey Peters <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Dear Michael,
> >
> > I find it problematic that you suggest that yourself or the Foundation
> > would
> > speak out against this, when the law in question is about terminating the
> > access to those who have been caught pirating material in violation of
> set
> > copyright multiple times.
> >
> > This is problematic because Wikipedia has a huge plagiarism and copyvio
> > problem that is caused by the same people that would come under conflict
> > above.
> >
> > This clearly would not affect those who freely license their own
> material,
> > which is what Wikipedia and the WMF is about. I've donated thousands of
> > hours and hundreds of megs of my own material and my own effort. I find
> it
> > a
> > slap in the face that you would then make such statements.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Jeffrey Peters
> > aka Ottava Rima
> >
> >
> I think that Michael was talking about speaking against them if they were
> targeting the CC license itself (he was responding to my comment about the
> CC licenses). Given that those are the licenses we use (and that a large
> pillar of our projects is having as much of our information available under
> licenses like it) it would make sense that we want to be aware of what was
> happening and make sure our reasoning was out there.
>
> I, like you, think the issue of the ISP rule is different. In many ways I
> actually support the 3 strikes rule .It isn't perfect in my mind but much
> better then the lawsuits which I think harmed the industry far more then it
> helped. I went to many court cases out of interest and while some were very
> interesting (there were a couple people that to be honest probably deserved
> to be sued) most were a mass of depression.
>
>
> James Alexander
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: ASCAP comes out against "copyleft"

Liam Wyatt
Jeffrey,
You are aware that Wikimedia projects use creative commons licenses, right?
You have noticed that Wikimedia projects delete content on-sight that is a
copyright violation? You do know that creative commons is a project to
promote the *legal* re-use of copyrighted material?

 As the article says:

"While lobby groups EFF and Public Knowledge advocate for liberal copyright
laws, Creative Commons actually creates licenses to protect content
creators."

Given that the Wikimedia projects are smack-bang in the middle of the
free-culture movement, don't you think that you might be barking up the
wrong tree to suggest that David G is in any way out of place to be pointing
this issue out to us on this list?



On 25 June 2010 23:39, Jeffrey Peters <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear James,
>
> If that was what Michael was saying, then I apologize for what I said to
> him. However, I think the problem could be is that some people see only
> what
> wired.com says (i.e. targetting Creative Commons, etc) and not the law
> that
> was being passed that the backers of those were in opposition to (i.e. the
> anti-piracy law. As I pointed out in the WSJ article, was something
> Lawrence
> Lessig would be against as he wanted, if you read the very end, to end any
> enforcement of copyright laws against P2P people, which happens to be
> blatant piracy).
>
> I am all for my chosing to release my content without any copyright
> restrictions. I am against forcing everyone to do the same, as there is a
> lot of content of my own that I do not release freely and I would not want
> to be released freely.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jeffrey Peters
> aka Ottava Rima
>
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