Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22 January 2012 23:31, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The wiki way to talk may be favored by the Wikipedia community, but is
>> really weird to the general public.
>
> The name 'talk page' is also a terrible name and very ambiguous as to
> what it is.  A far more appropriate candidate for such a page's name
> would be 'collaboration page', 'work page', 'improvement page' and so
> on.
>
> I understand why many people believe it to be a page to talk about the
> article at hand rather than how to improve it.
>
> A comment section under the article (or a trollpage like on Wikinews)
> seems unlikely to benefit anything.  Most of the comments will be
> unimportant, useless or altogether pointless.  And those few comments
> THAT DO provide some insight or interest in the subject could either
> be better used incorporated into the article *or* will get buried
> among the thousands of other comments.
>
> You think [[Cats]] isn't likely to get a lot of stupid cat comments?
> And while changes to articles are worthy of maintenance for most
> people to volunteer to do, I sincerely doubt you will find many who
> would manage a comment system on Wikipedia.  And it *will* require
> management to be useful.

What about a Slashdot-like comment section moderated by users themselves? :-)

>
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Svip
On 22 January 2012 23:39, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The name 'talk page' is also a terrible name and very ambiguous as to
> what it is.  A far more appropriate candidate for such a page's name
> would be 'collaboration page', 'work page', 'improvement page' and so
> on.


English Wikinews calls it "collaboration". On English Wikipedia it
used to be called "talk", this was changed to "discussion", and it was
recently changed back to "talk".


- d.

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Svip
In reply to this post by Ziyuan Yao
On 23 January 2012 00:43, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 22 January 2012 23:31, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> The wiki way to talk may be favored by the Wikipedia community, but is
>>> really weird to the general public.
>>
>> The name 'talk page' is also a terrible name and very ambiguous as to
>> what it is.  A far more appropriate candidate for such a page's name
>> would be 'collaboration page', 'work page', 'improvement page' and so
>> on.
>>
>> I understand why many people believe it to be a page to talk about the
>> article at hand rather than how to improve it.
>>
>> A comment section under the article (or a trollpage like on Wikinews)
>> seems unlikely to benefit anything.  Most of the comments will be
>> unimportant, useless or altogether pointless.  And those few comments
>> THAT DO provide some insight or interest in the subject could either
>> be better used incorporated into the article *or* will get buried
>> among the thousands of other comments.
>>
>> You think [[Cats]] isn't likely to get a lot of stupid cat comments?
>> And while changes to articles are worthy of maintenance for most
>> people to volunteer to do, I sincerely doubt you will find many who
>> would manage a comment system on Wikipedia.  And it *will* require
>> management to be useful.
>
> What about a Slashdot-like comment section moderated by users themselves? :-)

Slashdot's comment moderation system is my favourite comment
moderation system, but it is not perfect.  And it works for Slashdot,
because it is usually read by computer literate people.  We cannot
expect the same expertise from people who are likely to be commenting
on [[Cat]].  Which unfortunately would mean that a comment system like
Slashdot's would become too confusing to most people, even if they did
not have to participate in the moderation aspect.

Then one might suggest a Digg/Reddit type system where comments can
simply be voted up or down (or perhaps just up), but that is fine for
a news site, where comments disappear as a new news story flocks to
the top.  But on Wikipedia, [[Cat]] will always be there and it will
continue to have the same level of importance as it did yesterday,
today and tomorrow.  Hence the comments there will be carved in brine
stone.  And if *one* comment is elected to the top, it will continue
to get more votes and continue to be the comment most people will see
so there will be less ACTUAL new comments.  Bash.org is an example of
how this works (or lack thereof), as the same popular quotations
remain in the Top 100 as they were 5 years ago.

Then we come back to a no user moderated system, and then we run into
my former problem.  Where it will either way be a Lord of the Flies
system where no actual interesting conversation is generated (because
people with interesting comments worry their comments might get buried
anyway), because either there is no moderation or no one willing to do
it.

What's further at issue is that a comment section on Wikipedia may
also degenerate people's trust in Wikipedia as a source, because
suddenly it would appear as every other Internet website where you
comment on articles, forum threads and whatnot.  Wikipedia *ought* to
steep above that.  It needs to be different.  It needs to be
information only.  No discussion.

And that is - in my opinion at least - the beauty of Wikipedia.  In a
world of a chaos, one remains committed for order.

But if we really *need* a system where we can comment on broad
concepts such as [[Cat]] or [[Solar calendar]]s, we could create a
'Wikipedia comment site', that would seemingly seem connected to
Wikipedia, but at the same time not.  And what's appropriate, it would
be less obvious to find, which may gander some headway among people
interested in actual conversations with others on the subject.

And I am certain some IT news site out there will cover its formation.
 And if we can handle it, there might even be a subtle link from every
Wikipedia article to this off-site comment site.

In fact, I'm surprised wikicomments.org is still available.

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Svip
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 23 January 2012 00:44, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22 January 2012 23:39, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The name 'talk page' is also a terrible name and very ambiguous as to
>> what it is.  A far more appropriate candidate for such a page's name
>> would be 'collaboration page', 'work page', 'improvement page' and so
>> on.
>
>
> English Wikinews calls it "collaboration". On English Wikipedia it
> used to be called "talk", this was changed to "discussion", and it was
> recently changed back to "talk".

I know this.  But neither of "talk" or "discussion" refers to the
actual purpose of the page.  It rather refers how the page is
functioning.  Like calling it "Cellular phone" rather than "Mobile
phone", because naming it after the technology it uses is far more
descriptive than its benefits for users?  Classic English.  It's a
dust sucker, not a vacuum cleaner.

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Ziyuan Yao
Yao Ziyuan wrote:
> This merit is even more evident when the topic is very specialized,
> e.g. [[Phonological history of English low back vowels]]. I bet there
> isn't a forum on the Web dedicated to this very specialized topic, and
> even if there is one, it can be very hard to find it with Google
> (because it may use a slightly different term to describe this topic).
> However, if every Wikipedia article has a corresponding comment
> section (actually a forum), people with this special interest
> ("phonological history of English low back vowels") will know where to
> go to find each other, forming a "special interest group" (SIG).

I think it's an interesting idea for an outside group to take on. It'd be
trivial to re-use Wikimedia's content (page titles or page titles + page
text) to create a discussion forum for all kinds of neat articles. But given
the cost-benefit analysis for the Wikimedia Foundation getting involved, I
don't see it as a very good idea. Lots of costs (implementation and
development of the software, monitoring comments, page load increase, etc.)
and not many benefits (see below).

While I appreciate your optimistic view of comments on the Internet, I'm
generally of the view that the Web needs fewer comment sections, not more.
Has anyone ever found (for example) a YouTube comment insightful or useful?
Ever? Occasionally a news site with some kind of noise filter (up-votes or
the like) can produce an occasional comment that's not completely awful and
useless. Most comment sections are filled with vile language (if people are
paying viewing the content) or spam (if people aren't).

It's certainly a reasonable idea for a MediaWiki extension, if such an
extension doesn't exist already.

MZMcBride



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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:16 AM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yao Ziyuan wrote:
>> This merit is even more evident when the topic is very specialized,
>> e.g. [[Phonological history of English low back vowels]]. I bet there
>> isn't a forum on the Web dedicated to this very specialized topic, and
>> even if there is one, it can be very hard to find it with Google
>> (because it may use a slightly different term to describe this topic).
>> However, if every Wikipedia article has a corresponding comment
>> section (actually a forum), people with this special interest
>> ("phonological history of English low back vowels") will know where to
>> go to find each other, forming a "special interest group" (SIG).
>
> I think it's an interesting idea for an outside group to take on. It'd be
> trivial to re-use Wikimedia's content (page titles or page titles + page
> text) to create a discussion forum for all kinds of neat articles. But given
> the cost-benefit analysis for the Wikimedia Foundation getting involved, I
> don't see it as a very good idea. Lots of costs (implementation and
> development of the software, monitoring comments, page load increase, etc.)
> and not many benefits (see below).

That outside group could be Google (Google Groups in particular).

>
> While I appreciate your optimistic view of comments on the Internet, I'm
> generally of the view that the Web needs fewer comment sections, not more.
> Has anyone ever found (for example) a YouTube comment insightful or useful?
> Ever? Occasionally a news site with some kind of noise filter (up-votes or
> the like) can produce an occasional comment that's not completely awful and
> useless. Most comment sections are filled with vile language (if people are
> paying viewing the content) or spam (if people aren't).
>
> It's certainly a reasonable idea for a MediaWiki extension, if such an
> extension doesn't exist already.

Many MediaWiki extensions already do this. As said in my original message:

There are many MediaWiki extensions that can add a comment section to
every Wikipedia article. Just go to
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and
search for "comment" or "discussion".

>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Ziyuan Yao
Hoi,
A comment section under every Wikipedia article seems to be a very bad
idea. You read a Wikipedia article to learn about the subject at hand, you
can read comments on the talk page. Reading the talk page only makes sense
when you are interested in learning more about what people have to say
about the article or the subject. Typically I am not and I am sure that
most of our readers could not care less.

Having comments in your face at the bottom to me is not only something I
would resent, it would also add more clutter that I have to download every
time I read an article. Given that more and more people read Wikipedia on a
mobile, it is added real cost with debatable benefit.

Interesting idea, sure. Strategic hell no.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 22 January 2012 22:43, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just filed a feature request which I think is of strategic interest
> to Wikipedia:
>
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33889
>
> Bug 33889 - Request to add a comment section under every Wikipedia article
>
> By providing a comment section under every Wikipedia article, we can enable
> people interested in that topic to talk with each other, make friends and
> exchange external resources pertaining to that topic (e.g. books, products,
> jobs, external references, etc.).
>
> Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia; it is also a very valuable "topic
> navigation and positioning service" that navigates you to any conceivable
> topic
> in your mind, and once you're at that topic's Wikipedia article, the
> article's
> URL becomes a unique address that "positions" that topic. With this
> position,
> we can do many useful things (such as the ones mentioned in the previous
> paragraph), just like we can do many useful things with a geographic
> information system (GIS) such as Google Earth.
>
> There are many MediaWiki extensions that can add a comment section to every
> Wikipedia article. Just go to
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and search
> for
> "comment" or "discussion".
>
> Best Regards,
> Ziyuan Yao
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> A comment section under every Wikipedia article seems to be a very bad
> idea. You read a Wikipedia article to learn about the subject at hand, you
> can read comments on the talk page. Reading the talk page only makes sense
> when you are interested in learning more about what people have to say
> about the article or the subject. Typically I am not and I am sure that
> most of our readers could not care less.
>
> Having comments in your face at the bottom to me is not only something I
> would resent, it would also add more clutter that I have to download every
> time I read an article. Given that more and more people read Wikipedia on a
> mobile, it is added real cost with debatable benefit.

I see this idea is unpopular among the maling list, but I still want
to point out that the "download" part is not true. Comments can be
dynamically downloaded (e.g. AJAX) on a on-demand basis (only when you
click "Show comments" would comments be downloaded and shown to you).

>
> Interesting idea, sure. Strategic hell no.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On 22 January 2012 22:43, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I just filed a feature request which I think is of strategic interest
>> to Wikipedia:
>>
>> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33889
>>
>> Bug 33889 - Request to add a comment section under every Wikipedia article
>>
>> By providing a comment section under every Wikipedia article, we can enable
>> people interested in that topic to talk with each other, make friends and
>> exchange external resources pertaining to that topic (e.g. books, products,
>> jobs, external references, etc.).
>>
>> Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia; it is also a very valuable "topic
>> navigation and positioning service" that navigates you to any conceivable
>> topic
>> in your mind, and once you're at that topic's Wikipedia article, the
>> article's
>> URL becomes a unique address that "positions" that topic. With this
>> position,
>> we can do many useful things (such as the ones mentioned in the previous
>> paragraph), just like we can do many useful things with a geographic
>> information system (GIS) such as Google Earth.
>>
>> There are many MediaWiki extensions that can add a comment section to every
>> Wikipedia article. Just go to
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and search
>> for
>> "comment" or "discussion".
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Ziyuan Yao
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Svip
On 23 January 2012 18:16, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Having comments in your face at the bottom to me is not only something I
>> would resent, it would also add more clutter that I have to download every
>> time I read an article.
>
> I see this idea is unpopular among the maling list, but I still want
> to point out that the "download" part is not true. Comments can be
> dynamically downloaded (e.g. AJAX) on a on-demand basis (only when you
> click "Show comments" would comments be downloaded and shown to you).

Perhaps, but Wikipedia (and MediaWiki sites in general) are one of the
few remaining websites that benefits from being Web 1.0 rather than
Web 2.0, even if it has elements of the latter.

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Oliver Keyes-4
Note that we are adding a sorta-quasi-comments section, just not on the
articles; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5

On 23 January 2012 17:31, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 23 January 2012 18:16, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Having comments in your face at the bottom to me is not only something I
> >> would resent, it would also add more clutter that I have to download
> every
> >> time I read an article.
> >
> > I see this idea is unpopular among the maling list, but I still want
> > to point out that the "download" part is not true. Comments can be
> > dynamically downloaded (e.g. AJAX) on a on-demand basis (only when you
> > click "Show comments" would comments be downloaded and shown to you).
>
> Perhaps, but Wikipedia (and MediaWiki sites in general) are one of the
> few remaining websites that benefits from being Web 1.0 rather than
> Web 2.0, even if it has elements of the latter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Oliver Keyes
Community Liaison, Product Development
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
In reply to this post by Ziyuan Yao
Since it's unlikely the foundation mailing list will agree to enable
such a comment section on every Wikipedia article (although enabling
it is quite easy: just choose a "comment" extension from
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and
enable it on Wikipedia), maybe we can talk about implementing it on a
separate website.

For example, create a website named WikiSocial.com. This will be a Web
2.0 version of Wikipedia, which lets you browse Wikipedia's content
but also provides Web 2.0 social features such as the comment section,
social sharing buttons (e.g. "Tweet this article").

Any interest? :-)

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 5:43 AM, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just filed a feature request which I think is of strategic interest
> to Wikipedia:
>
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33889
>
> Bug 33889 - Request to add a comment section under every Wikipedia article
>
> By providing a comment section under every Wikipedia article, we can enable
> people interested in that topic to talk with each other, make friends and
> exchange external resources pertaining to that topic (e.g. books, products,
> jobs, external references, etc.).
>
> Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia; it is also a very valuable "topic
> navigation and positioning service" that navigates you to any conceivable topic
> in your mind, and once you're at that topic's Wikipedia article, the article's
> URL becomes a unique address that "positions" that topic. With this position,
> we can do many useful things (such as the ones mentioned in the previous
> paragraph), just like we can do many useful things with a geographic
> information system (GIS) such as Google Earth.
>
> There are many MediaWiki extensions that can add a comment section to every
> Wikipedia article. Just go to
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and search for
> "comment" or "discussion".
>
> Best Regards,
> Ziyuan Yao

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Thomas Dalton
On 23 January 2012 18:09, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since it's unlikely the foundation mailing list will agree to enable
> such a comment section on every Wikipedia article (although enabling
> it is quite easy: just choose a "comment" extension from
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and
> enable it on Wikipedia), maybe we can talk about implementing it on a
> separate website.
>
> For example, create a website named WikiSocial.com. This will be a Web
> 2.0 version of Wikipedia, which lets you browse Wikipedia's content
> but also provides Web 2.0 social features such as the comment section,
> social sharing buttons (e.g. "Tweet this article").
>
> Any interest? :-)

There might well be some interest, but it doesn't sound like something
the Wikimedia movement would do. There is nothing stopping someone
else mirroring Wikipedia's content and adding a comments section. The
whole point of having Wikipedia be free (as in speech) is so that
other people can re-use it in interesting ways, and this sounds like a
good example of that.

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
In reply to this post by Ziyuan Yao
Turns out, this "adding a comment section under every Wikipedia
article" idea is not necessary, because if two people are interested
in the same topic, they can find that topic's Wikipedia article and
google that article's title (which is a globally unique term for that
topic) and find each other. They don't need a comment section on that
article to meet each other.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 5:43 AM, Yao Ziyuan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just filed a feature request which I think is of strategic interest
> to Wikipedia:
>
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33889
>
> Bug 33889 - Request to add a comment section under every Wikipedia article
>
> By providing a comment section under every Wikipedia article, we can enable
> people interested in that topic to talk with each other, make friends and
> exchange external resources pertaining to that topic (e.g. books, products,
> jobs, external references, etc.).
>
> Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia; it is also a very valuable "topic
> navigation and positioning service" that navigates you to any conceivable topic
> in your mind, and once you're at that topic's Wikipedia article, the article's
> URL becomes a unique address that "positions" that topic. With this position,
> we can do many useful things (such as the ones mentioned in the previous
> paragraph), just like we can do many useful things with a geographic
> information system (GIS) such as Google Earth.
>
> There are many MediaWiki extensions that can add a comment section to every
> Wikipedia article. Just go to
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix/AllExtensions and search for
> "comment" or "discussion".
>
> Best Regards,
> Ziyuan Yao

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

David Richfield
I would like to add my voice to the list of those who say that this is
a very bad idea, for reasons already listed.

One kernel of truth is that users who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia
expect discussion at the bottom of EVERYTHING on the web.  Blog posts,
videos, facebook posts.

Maybe at the bottom of the page, put a big fat link to the talk tab?

I would not mind social media buttons at the bottom of a page, but I
think I'm the minority here.  I certainly don't think it's
strategically necessary, but I'm no strategy expert.

David Richfield [[en:User:Slashme]]

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FT2
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

FT2
The difference is, we tread a narrow line here.

We want talk, but of a contributory kind, high signal-noise, high
proportion of information. There are three kinds of "discussion" that can
take place:


   1. *User feedback* - characterized by specific one-off posts left for
   others to uprate or downrate and (presumably as far as they're concerned)
   editors to hopefully do something with or listen to.  Ideally this filters
   3 ways - (a)* ignore, (b) pass to editors with thanks, or (c) note but
   no action taken, with explanation and thanks*.
   2. *Editor discussion of the article*, high quality dialog specifically
   about the article, or good points fed back on it.
   3. *Discussion of the _topic_, or general chat, forum-y stuff, random
   whatever*... this is what people also expect. Look at any popular blog
   or facebook page, the chat below is often just people discussing the
   subject, what's said about it... low signal to noise generally.

The article feedback tool is working towards (1); when it's closer to
complete I imagine articles will have a "give feedback here". (2) we
already have. *

What is worth asking is, is there a place in Wikimedia for (3)?* If so it
can only be for social interest and "stickiness" (people who discuss may
contribute or at the least will be made more aware). It could be very good
for that. The downside is it attracts advocates, might draw attention away
from content discussion, needs patrolling (distraction from content), etc.
So here's the focused question -- is there a net return from the "plus"
side, and if so is there a way to get that benefit that returns more than
it costs?  Where:


   - "returns" will be oxygen for the project generally and articles
   specifically, awareness, wider attention, stickiness, more public eyeballs,
   a way to get some more focus here of the kind social sites leverage, and
   maybe a start for more editors from (3), and

   - "costs" will be the distraction from working on high quality
   discussions (1) (2) and article editing as a result of patroling and other
   needs of (3)

(And of course the standard of comparison could be "better of two evils".
For instance if the crystal ball says a wiki project dies due to fading
attention then maybe chat and patrolling is net harmful but less harmful
than eventual loss)

FT2

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:09 PM, David Richfield
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I would like to add my voice to the list of those who say that this is
> a very bad idea, for reasons already listed.
>
> One kernel of truth is that users who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia
> expect discussion at the bottom of EVERYTHING on the web.  Blog posts,
> videos, facebook posts.
>
> Maybe at the bottom of the page, put a big fat link to the talk tab?
>
> I would not mind social media buttons at the bottom of a page, but I
> think I'm the minority here.  I certainly don't think it's
> strategically necessary, but I'm no strategy expert.
>
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Ziyuan Yao
Instead of hosting comment sections on Wikipedia, there is also the
possibility to just retrieve external comments using Google Blog
Search. For example, if you're viewing [[Cat]], you can click a button
called "Show comments" below the article, which will run a Google Blog
Search that returns all blog posts mentioning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat, sorted by date or by relevance
(PageRank-style sorting, which can automatically surface the best
comments to the top).

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM, FT2 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The difference is, we tread a narrow line here.
>
> We want talk, but of a contributory kind, high signal-noise, high
> proportion of information. There are three kinds of "discussion" that can
> take place:
>
>
>   1. *User feedback* - characterized by specific one-off posts left for
>   others to uprate or downrate and (presumably as far as they're concerned)
>   editors to hopefully do something with or listen to.  Ideally this filters
>   3 ways - (a)* ignore, (b) pass to editors with thanks, or (c) note but
>   no action taken, with explanation and thanks*.
>   2. *Editor discussion of the article*, high quality dialog specifically
>   about the article, or good points fed back on it.
>   3. *Discussion of the _topic_, or general chat, forum-y stuff, random
>   whatever*... this is what people also expect. Look at any popular blog
>   or facebook page, the chat below is often just people discussing the
>   subject, what's said about it... low signal to noise generally.
>
> The article feedback tool is working towards (1); when it's closer to
> complete I imagine articles will have a "give feedback here". (2) we
> already have. *
>
> What is worth asking is, is there a place in Wikimedia for (3)?* If so it
> can only be for social interest and "stickiness" (people who discuss may
> contribute or at the least will be made more aware). It could be very good
> for that. The downside is it attracts advocates, might draw attention away
> from content discussion, needs patrolling (distraction from content), etc.
> So here's the focused question -- is there a net return from the "plus"
> side, and if so is there a way to get that benefit that returns more than
> it costs?  Where:
>
>
>   - "returns" will be oxygen for the project generally and articles
>   specifically, awareness, wider attention, stickiness, more public eyeballs,
>   a way to get some more focus here of the kind social sites leverage, and
>   maybe a start for more editors from (3), and
>
>   - "costs" will be the distraction from working on high quality
>   discussions (1) (2) and article editing as a result of patroling and other
>   needs of (3)
>
> (And of course the standard of comparison could be "better of two evils".
> For instance if the crystal ball says a wiki project dies due to fading
> attention then maybe chat and patrolling is net harmful but less harmful
> than eventual loss)
>
> FT2
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:09 PM, David Richfield
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> I would like to add my voice to the list of those who say that this is
>> a very bad idea, for reasons already listed.
>>
>> One kernel of truth is that users who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia
>> expect discussion at the bottom of EVERYTHING on the web.  Blog posts,
>> videos, facebook posts.
>>
>> Maybe at the bottom of the page, put a big fat link to the talk tab?
>>
>> I would not mind social media buttons at the bottom of a page, but I
>> think I'm the minority here.  I certainly don't think it's
>> strategically necessary, but I'm no strategy expert.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

Johan Jönsson
In reply to this post by FT2
FT2:

>   - "costs" will be the distraction from working on high quality
>   discussions (1) (2) and article editing as a result of patroling and other
>   needs of (3)

... and loss of neutrality, when the comments on controversial topics
(or even less controversial) are filled with arguments for one cause
or another – and all comments *will* be considered to be, in some way,
a part of Wikipedia as well.

//Johan Jönsson
--
http://johanjonsson.net/wikipedia

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

FT2
Yes. I had thought about one option - a separate website entirely, purely
for people to chat about Wikimedia articles. But at a first glance that
dead ends for so many reasons.

FT2




2012/1/24 Johan Jönsson <[hidden email]>

> FT2:
>
> >   - "costs" will be the distraction from working on high quality
> >   discussions (1) (2) and article editing as a result of patroling and
> other
> >   needs of (3)
>
> ... and loss of neutrality, when the comments on controversial topics
> (or even less controversial) are filled with arguments for one cause
> or another – and all comments *will* be considered to be, in some way,
> a part of Wikipedia as well.
>
> //Johan Jönsson
> --
> http://johanjonsson.net/wikipedia
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

David Richfield
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 4:50 PM, FT2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes. I had thought about one option - a separate website entirely, purely
> for people to chat about Wikimedia articles. But at a first glance that
> dead ends for so many reasons.

Maybe implement a subreddit schema and some way to create a subreddit
for each article?  I don't know what Conde Nast's nastiness level is,
though.

Or maybe a slashdot portal?

Just throwing ideas around here...

--
David Richfield
[[:en:User:Slashme]]

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Re: Adding a comment section under every Wikipedia article

David Gerard-2
On 24 January 2012 15:31, David Richfield <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Maybe implement a subreddit schema and some way to create a subreddit
> for each article?  I don't know what Conde Nast's nastiness level is,
> though.


The Reddit code is open source. Apparently takes more than a little
work to do useful things with it, though.


- d.

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