Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

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Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Greg Grossmeier-2
Hello,

The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people
responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include
people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW
train deployment window is too late in the day for them.

To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW
train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to
accommodate).

The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of
July 9th.

For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go
away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used
during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the
EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not
dependent upon who's doing the train).

== European train window and changes ==
This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday

* 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier)
* 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break
* 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window
* 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break
* 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)


Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time)
SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a
contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.

Best,

Greg

[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap

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Re: Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Greg Grossmeier-2
Reminder that this is starting this week (tomorrow).

<quote name="Greg Grossmeier" date="2018-07-02" time="11:21:53 -0700">

> Hello,
>
> The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people
> responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include
> people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW
> train deployment window is too late in the day for them.
>
> To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW
> train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to
> accommodate).
>
> The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of
> July 9th.
>
> For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go
> away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used
> during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the
> EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not
> dependent upon who's doing the train).
>
> == European train window and changes ==
> This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday
>
> * 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier)
> * 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break
> * 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window
> * 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break
> * 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)
>
>
> Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time)
> SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a
> contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.
>
> Best,
>
> Greg
>
> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap
>
> --
> | Greg Grossmeier            GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> | Release Team Manager            A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |


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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Marko Obrovac
Hello Greg,

I think this is a great initiative and will surely ease work for all people
working on the positive spectrum of UTC :)

One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally
been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you
list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to
Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?

Cheers,
Marko


Marko Obrovac, PhD
Senior Services Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation

On 9 July 2018 at 20:28, Greg Grossmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Reminder that this is starting this week (tomorrow).
>
> <quote name="Greg Grossmeier" date="2018-07-02" time="11:21:53 -0700">
> > Hello,
> >
> > The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people
> > responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include
> > people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW
> > train deployment window is too late in the day for them.
> >
> > To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW
> > train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to
> > accommodate).
> >
> > The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of
> > July 9th.
> >
> > For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go
> > away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used
> > during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the
> > EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not
> > dependent upon who's doing the train).
> >
> > == European train window and changes ==
> > This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday
> >
> > * 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier)
> > * 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break
> > * 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window
> > * 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break
> > * 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)
> >
> >
> > Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time)
> > SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a
> > contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap
> >
> > --
> > | Greg Grossmeier            GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> > | Release Team Manager            A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
>
>
> --
> | Greg Grossmeier            GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> | Release Team Manager            A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Engineering mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>
>
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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Greg Grossmeier-2
<quote name="Marko Obrovac" date="2018-07-10" time="12:09:19 +0200">
> One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally
> been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you
> list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to
> Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?

Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
changes already do.

Thanks,

Greg

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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Marko Obrovac
On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
> pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
> create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
> changes already do.
>

It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly,
which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are
applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe,
people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same
time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window
mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to
account for the periods when DST settings vary.

I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.


My 2 cents,
Marko

Marko Obrovac, PhD
Senior Services Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation



>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
> --
> | Greg Grossmeier            GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
> | Release Team Manager            A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Engineering mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>
>
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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Piotr Miazga
I agree with Marko, every time there is a DST change my calendar is totally
messed up (some events are pinned to the Pacific time zone, other to the
Central European time zone). By pinning everything to UTC we could save
that confusion.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:05 AM Marko Obrovac <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows
>> pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would
>> create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings
>> changes already do.
>>
>
> It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly,
> which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are
> applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe,
> people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same
> time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window
> mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to
> account for the periods when DST settings vary.
>
> I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.
>
>
> My 2 cents,
> Marko
>
> Marko Obrovac, PhD
> Senior Services Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> --
>> | Greg Grossmeier            GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
>> | Release Team Manager            A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Engineering mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Engineering mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>
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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Kunal Mehta
In reply to this post by Marko Obrovac
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

On 07/11/2018 12:05 AM, Marko Obrovac wrote:
> It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people,
> honestly, which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST
> changes are applied, and because they are not applied at the same
> across the globe, people will see their SWAT times change for no
> apparent reason. At the same time, there is plenty of hours of
> difference between the last deploy window mentioned in your email
> and the first SF-centric deployment window to account for the
> periods when DST settings vary.

(un)relatedly:
* EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
<https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve
ylanguage=EN>
* California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
<https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa
ving_Time_Measure_(2018)>

Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)

- -- Legoktm
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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> (un)relatedly:
> * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
> <https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve
> ylanguage=EN>
> * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
> <https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa
> ving_Time_Measure_(2018)>
>
> Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
>

You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)


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[Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Alex Monk
As long as these get pinned to SF time what the rest of the US does with
regards to DST is irrelevant. If California drops DST then it no longer
affects deployments pinned to SF time.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:42 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> (un)relatedly:
>> * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
>> <https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve
>> ylanguage=EN
>> <https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surveylanguage=EN>
>> >
>> * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
>> <https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa
>> ving_Time_Measure_(2018
>> <https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Saving_Time_Measure_(2018>
>> )>
>>
>> Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
>>
>
> You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Alex Monk
In reply to this post by Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Well yes, but so will the rest of the world that uses DST.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 21:04 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> My point was that if CA and Europe accepts those proposals then the rest
> of the US that still uses DST would have the problem that things would move
> around when DST starts or ends, so it just moves the problem around instead
> of really getting rid of it.
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As long as these get pinned to SF time what the rest of the US does with
>> regards to DST is irrelevant. If California drops DST then it no longer
>> affects deployments pinned to SF time.
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:42 Brad Jorsch (Anomie), <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (un)relatedly:
>>>> * EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
>>>> <
>>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve
>>>> ylanguage=EN
>>>> <https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surveylanguage=EN>
>>>> >
>>>> * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
>>>> <
>>>> https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa
>>>> ving_Time_Measure_(2018
>>>> <https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Saving_Time_Measure_(2018>
>>>> )>
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
>>> Senior Software Engineer
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Engineering mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [Ops] [Engineering] Additional European-appropriate MediaWiki train window starting week of July 9th (also SWAT change)

Greg Grossmeier-2
In reply to this post by Marko Obrovac
<quote name="Marko Obrovac" date="2018-07-11" time="09:05:29 +0200">
> I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.

Two thoughts...

1) If we do this let's do this for all European-focused windows.

That would be the European mid-day SWAT window and the Train window, to
start (there are some other one-off type windows, eg the Portals window,
that would probably also make sense to be pinned to non-SF time, but
it's up to those individuals/teams).

2) I believe it makes more sense to pin the windows to the human
experience time of those who are responsible for doing the window (eg:
follows DST/Summer time in Europe). That way the deployment windows
continue to stay at the same time relative to people's other meetings
(which, some are coordinated with the various deploy (SWAT and Train)
windows). That's what we do for all of the rest of the windows (pinned
to Pacific/SF time, which changes based on DST) and would then be less
of a surprise for everyone.

Based on this map[0] it appears the vast majority of our contributors
and deployers live in DST-affected (inflicted? infected? ;-) )
countries.


Greg

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country#/media/File:DST_Countries_Map.png

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