An idea for deletions

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An idea for deletions

Ron Ritzman
Just an idea I have been bouncing around for deletion nominations.

If a user, any user either with an account or anonymous wants to
nominate an article for deletion. Instead of posting directly to AFD,
he instead enters the name of the article and the reason he thinks it
needs to be deleted into a web form. The nomination then goes to a
"deletion preview" team who can take one of several actions...

1. Speedy delete. Only for obvious no doubt speedy deletion
candidates, nonsense pages and troll pages. Example "Jimbo Wales is a
bonehead" or "list of glups that glip".

2. Speedy keep. Article is definitely not a candidate for deletion ie
some bozo nominates "George W. Bush" or "Star Wars". Also could be
used to keep articles with a strong keep consensus from being
constantly renominated by a troll.

3. Bounce back. The nominator (if a registered user) will be asked to
resubmit the nom. ie "please be more specific then "fancruft" or
"unencyclopedic""

4.Pass to ADF. Only then does the nomination go to AFD and only then
does the article get tagged.

5. Rewrite by previewer. The nomination as written is invalid but the
previewer notices something else about the article that bugs him.

I think such a system would reduce the load on AFD but still allow us
to deal with problem articles promptly.

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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
On 2/14/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Just an idea I have been bouncing around for deletion nominations.
>
> If a user, any user either with an account or anonymous wants to
> nominate an article for deletion. Instead of posting directly to AFD,
> he instead enters the name of the article and the reason he thinks it
> needs to be deleted into a web form. The nomination then goes to a
> "deletion preview" team who can take one of several actions...

This looks like a step in the right direction. Wikipedia (or really,
MediaWiki) has very few "procedural" links in its interface. It takes
a lot of knowledge to know that you should type "WP:AFD" in the search
box, then follow further, fairly intricate and error-prone
instructions. It would be a hell of a lot easier if there was just a
"Suggest this article for deletion" button on every article, that
would walk the user through a deletion wizard like you describe.

A whole menu of buttons at the top or bottom of each article would be useful:
- Suggest this article for deletion
- Report a problem with this article (discussed several months ago)
- Edit this article (for consistency)
- Recategorise this article (another new front end to categories,
possibly with commonsenes?)
- Suggest a new article (a front-end to WP:AFC)
- Make a donation (why not :))

General theme: "What do you want to do" links in addition to the
current "What do you want to know" links.

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Guettarda
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
On 2/13/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Just an idea I have been bouncing around for deletion nominations.
>
> If a user, any user either with an account or anonymous wants to
> nominate an article for deletion. Instead of posting directly to AFD,
> he instead enters the name of the article and the reason he thinks it
> needs to be deleted into a web form. The nomination then goes to a
> "deletion preview" team who can take one of several actions...
>
> 1. Speedy delete. Only for obvious no doubt speedy deletion
> candidates, nonsense pages and troll pages. Example "Jimbo Wales is a
> bonehead" or "list of glups that glip".
>
> 2. Speedy keep. Article is definitely not a candidate for deletion ie
> some bozo nominates "George W. Bush" or "Star Wars". Also could be
> used to keep articles with a strong keep consensus from being
> constantly renominated by a troll.
>
> 3. Bounce back. The nominator (if a registered user) will be asked to
> resubmit the nom. ie "please be more specific then "fancruft" or
> "unencyclopedic""
>
> 4.Pass to ADF. Only then does the nomination go to AFD and only then
> does the article get tagged.
>
> 5. Rewrite by previewer. The nomination as written is invalid but the
> previewer notices something else about the article that bugs him.
>
> I think such a system would reduce the load on AFD but still allow us
> to deal with problem articles promptly.


I really don't see how this reduces the load on AFD.  As it stands now any
admin can speedy delete an article on AFD, and a speedy keep is usually
pretty obvious.  What makes me uncomfortable about this proposal is that it
removes these powers from the community at large and puts it in the hands of
a special team.

It certainly makes deletion a lot more difficult.  As I understand it, too
much crap is more of a problem than too much unsupervised deletion.  AFD is
tends to get overwhelmed - making everything go through a few hands before
getting to AFD will only make this problem worse.
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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
On 2/14/07, Guettarda <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I really don't see how this reduces the load on AFD.  As it stands now any
> admin can speedy delete an article on AFD, and a speedy keep is usually
> pretty obvious.  What makes me uncomfortable about this proposal is that it
> removes these powers from the community at large and puts it in the hands of
> a special team.

He said "deletion preview team". He didn't say "elite, hand-picked
group of Jimbo's best friends". Just like AFC, it would be who ever
volunteers and can be bothered doing it.

> It certainly makes deletion a lot more difficult.  As I understand it, too
> much crap is more of a problem than too much unsupervised deletion.  AFD is
> tends to get overwhelmed - making everything go through a few hands before
> getting to AFD will only make this problem worse.

I also don't think he was proposing scrapping the existing direct AFD
method, for those that know how to do it. He's just proposing an
easier method in addition. I think.

And it should help the problem you describe by keeping some articles
out of AFD that don't need to be there.

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
> It would be a hell of a lot easier if there was just a
> "Suggest this article for deletion" button on every article, that
> would walk the user through a deletion wizard like you describe.

I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
too often to be useful...

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Re: An idea for deletions

Death Phoenix
On 2/14/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It would be a hell of a lot easier if there was just a
> > "Suggest this article for deletion" button on every article, that
> > would walk the user through a deletion wizard like you describe.
>
> I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
> too often to be useful...
>

The "deletion preview team" would be able to weed out those ones.
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Re: An idea for deletions

Luna-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 2/14/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
> too often to be useful...


That would be a problem; I'm not sure how big of one. Unblock-en-l gets
plenty of spam, but posts by non-subscribed emails require approval before
getting sent out, so even despite the 10:1 noise-to-signal ratio, the list
still functions. From what I hear, the other WMF mailing lists are a bit
similar in that regard.

Unless you were thinking more of "Please delete [[Martin Luther King, Jr.]]
because it sux lol," (or slightly less obvious nonsense), which might still
be a problem. CSD is hard to keep on top of. Prod seems to get around
100-200 pages daily, AfD is similar. Merging all that onto a mailing list
would be very, very busy. Unless, of course, this mailing list is only for
the people who *don't* know our deletion process, which would reduce the
load on the list a bit. At that point, it might be worth exploring.

Or perhaps we could have a more obvious "report a problem with this
article," link. I suppose that would have to go to OTRS, given the wide
variety and occassional sensitive nature of the emails such a link would
surely generate.

Just rambling,
-Luna
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Re: An idea for deletions

Keitei
On Feb 14, 2007, at 15:13, Luna wrote:
> On 2/14/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
>> too often to be useful...
> [...snip...] Merging all that onto a mailing list
> would be very, very busy. [snip...]

I was under the impression that this would be neither a mailing list  
nor anything else we've got set up, but rather a new facet of the  
MediaWiki software which would be written so that it works like we  
want it to. Unlike the copious piles of workarounds and quick hacks  
we've got....

And for that, all we need is a bored developer who can make decent  
special pages or some such, and maybe a bugzilla request. Unless it  
was intended to be a mailing list, in which case I think it's a  
horrible idea and mailing lists for issues intended to be acted upon  
should all be shot.

--keitei

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Re: An idea for deletions

Ron Ritzman
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
On 2/13/07, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> He said "deletion preview team". He didn't say "elite, hand-picked
> group of Jimbo's best friends". Just like AFC, it would be who ever
> volunteers and can be bothered doing it.

Except that under the model I "dreamed up" :) The volunteers would
have to have admin privs in order to delete the no-brainers. Anything
else could be done by any volunteer, admin or not.

> I also don't think he was proposing scrapping the existing direct AFD
> method, for those that know how to do it. He's just proposing an
> easier method in addition. I think.

[snip]

> And it should help the problem you describe by keeping some articles
> out of AFD that don't need to be there.

For this to work, the direct nomination method would have to be
scrapped or else a troll/vandal could get a bullshit nom past the
team. However, using such a system and keeping direct nominations
would still have a benefit in allowing anons and those unfamiliar with
deletion procedure to make a nom and even have it "proofread" for them
:)

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Re: An idea for deletions

Ron Ritzman
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 2/14/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
> too often to be useful...

That's why I don't know if I like the idea of having a "delete" button
on the article itself. The act of having to "go somewhere else and
jump through some hoops" makes some people think about their noms
under the present setup. I just want to eliminate the "hoops". Someone
who wants to nominate an article for deletion would still have to "go
somewhere else", the web form.

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Re: An idea for deletions

Ron Ritzman
In reply to this post by Keitei
On 2/14/07, Keitei <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And for that, all we need is a bored developer who can make decent
> special pages or some such, and maybe a bugzilla request. Unless it
> was intended to be a mailing list, in which case I think it's a
> horrible idea and mailing lists for issues intended to be acted upon
> should all be shot.

No I wasn't thinking of a mailing list. I was thinking of a web form
with submissions going to a queue of some kind. The team would then
process the queue on a first come first served basis and take whatever
action is appropriate (speedy keep/delete, pass to ADF etc.)

The whole point would be to pass only those noms that need consensus to AFD.

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Re: An idea for deletions

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
On 2/14/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just an idea I have been bouncing around for deletion nominations.
>
> If a user, any user either with an account or anonymous wants to
> nominate an article for deletion. Instead of posting directly to AFD,
> he instead enters the name of the article and the reason he thinks it
> needs to be deleted into a web form. The nomination then goes to a
> "deletion preview" team who can take one of several actions...
>
> 1. Speedy delete. Only for obvious no doubt speedy deletion
> candidates, nonsense pages and troll pages. Example "Jimbo Wales is a
> bonehead" or "list of glups that glip".
>
> 2. Speedy keep. Article is definitely not a candidate for deletion ie
> some bozo nominates "George W. Bush" or "Star Wars". Also could be
> used to keep articles with a strong keep consensus from being
> constantly renominated by a troll.
>
> 3. Bounce back. The nominator (if a registered user) will be asked to
> resubmit the nom. ie "please be more specific then "fancruft" or
> "unencyclopedic""
>
> 4.Pass to ADF. Only then does the nomination go to AFD and only then
> does the article get tagged.
>
> 5. Rewrite by previewer. The nomination as written is invalid but the
> previewer notices something else about the article that bugs him.
>
> I think such a system would reduce the load on AFD but still allow us
> to deal with problem articles promptly.

Just FYI, when the discussions about deletion where at their peak
(right after Ed Poor deleted Votes for Deletion, boy was that an
interesting night to be in #wikipedia), the page [[Wikipedia:Deletion
reform]] was created. There's tons of different ideas there for how to
handle deletion. Some of them makes for quite interesting reading.

--Oskar

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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 2/14/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
> too often to be useful...

Dude. AGF. Or at least "Give it a chance".

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
On 2/15/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For this to work, the direct nomination method would have to be
> scrapped or else a troll/vandal could get a bullshit nom past the
> team. However, using such a system and keeping direct nominations

Huh? As soon as we implement the new system, the old system is
suddenly worthless, insecure and must be dismantled? Because of the
risk of "bullshit noms", which we've coped with until now?

I was with you until now. But I don't get your reasoning here.

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Ron Ritzman
On 2/15/07, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/15/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > For this to work, the direct nomination method would have to be
> > scrapped or else a troll/vandal could get a bullshit nom past the
> > team. However, using such a system and keeping direct nominations

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[would still have a benefit]

> Huh? As soon as we implement the new system, the old system is
> suddenly worthless, insecure and must be dismantled? Because of the
> risk of "bullshit noms", which we've coped with until now?

I did offer two possible options here. Why didn't you comment on the
second part of the paragraph?

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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
On 2/15/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I did offer two possible options here. Why didn't you comment on the
> second part of the paragraph?

Short attention span, sorry :) For the record, I agree with the second
part of your paragraph:

>However, using such a system and keeping direct nominations
>would still have a benefit in allowing anons and those unfamiliar with
>deletion procedure to make a nom and even have it "proofread" for them

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
> > I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
> > too often to be useful...
>
> Dude. AGF. Or at least "Give it a chance".

AGF has nothing to do with it. AGF means giving people the benefit of
the doubt, not giving proposals the benefit of the doubt - a proposal
doesn't have faith, good or bad.

I never said we shouldn't give it a chance, I just expressed my
concerns - there is no harm in being aware of what could go wrong
before you try something.

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Re: An idea for deletions

Steve Bennett-8
On 2/16/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> AGF has nothing to do with it. AGF means giving people the benefit of
> the doubt, not giving proposals the benefit of the doubt - a proposal
> doesn't have faith, good or bad.

No, but if you're saying the proposal is bad because people suck, then
AGF does come into it.

> I never said we shouldn't give it a chance, I just expressed my
> concerns - there is no harm in being aware of what could go wrong
> before you try something.

Ok, cool.

Steve

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Re: An idea for deletions

Thomas Dalton
> No, but if you're saying the proposal is bad because people suck, then
> AGF does come into it.

Not people in general, just some people. AGF only applies when there
is significant doubt. There is no real doubt that a "nominate this
article for deletion" button would be abused. How much it would be
abused and how easy that abuse would be to deal with is a little
harder to determine, so it might be worth giving it a go to find out
(this is a case where experimentation won't do any great harm).

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Re: An idea for deletions

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas Dalton wrote:

>>>I have a worrying feeling that would be spammed by nonsense requests
>>>too often to be useful...
>>>      
>>>
>>Dude. AGF. Or at least "Give it a chance".
>>    
>>
>AGF has nothing to do with it. AGF means giving people the benefit of
>the doubt, not giving proposals the benefit of the doubt - a proposal
>doesn't have faith, good or bad.
>
Proposals come from people.

Ec


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