An open letter to Jimmy Wales

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FT2
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

FT2
Political correction:
>
>
>  Delete "whose two founders" and replace by "whose two best known early
trailblazers". I would not wish any stance to be read into my word choice
there.
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
2009/4/9 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:

> Further note from Tara Hunt: "How not to build a community: Part I:
> the anti-community "
> http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/06/how-not-to-build-community-part-i-anti.html


David Shankbone comments:

http://blog.shankbone.org/2009/04/09/larry-sanger-vs-jimmy-wales/

"Perhaps the explanation as to why Sanger is now making so much noise
about this again is that Citizendium is not doing so great.  Nobody
reads it and nobody cares about it.  Most people do not know it
exists."

Seth Finkelstein is apparently going to try for another hatchet job on
the subject in the Guardian, after his previous one was severely
gutted (in case you're wondering why it didn't appear to make sense).
I'm sure it'll be beautiful.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Jon-174
David Gerard wrote:

> 2009/4/9 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:
>
>  
>> Further note from Tara Hunt: "How not to build a community: Part I:
>> the anti-community "
>> http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/06/how-not-to-build-community-part-i-anti.html
>>    
>
>
> David Shankbone comments:
>
> http://blog.shankbone.org/2009/04/09/larry-sanger-vs-jimmy-wales/
>
> "Perhaps the explanation as to why Sanger is now making so much noise
> about this again is that Citizendium is not doing so great.  Nobody
> reads it and nobody cares about it.  Most people do not know it
> exists."
>
> Seth Finkelstein is apparently going to try for another hatchet job on
> the subject in the Guardian, after his previous one was severely
> gutted (in case you're wondering why it didn't appear to make sense).
> I'm sure it'll be beautiful.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>  
I was scanning the list today so I've not read every message in this
thread.  What is citizendium?  Is there a linky?

Best,

Jon


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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
2009/4/10 Jon <[hidden email]>:

> I was scanning the list today so I've not read every message in this
> thread.  What is citizendium?  Is there a linky?


http://citizendium.org/

It's another attempt to make a wiki-based free content encyclopedia
that isn't Wikipedia.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Carcharoth
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:13 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/4/10 Jon <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I was scanning the list today so I've not read every message in this
>> thread.  What is citizendium?  Is there a linky?
>
>
> http://citizendium.org/
>
> It's another attempt to make a wiki-based free content encyclopedia
> that isn't Wikipedia.

We also have an article on it, as well as one on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizendium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia


Citizendium have an article on Wikipedia and also one on Citizendium:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Wikipedia
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Citizendium

It's quite interesting reading those four articles and comparing them.

Carcharoth

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Larry Sanger-2
In a message dated 4/10/2009 9:25:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Seth Finkelstein is apparently going to try for another hatchet job on
> the subject in the Guardian, after his previous one was severely
> gutted (in case you're wondering why it didn't appear to make sense).
> I'm sure it'll be beautiful.>>

---------------

Do you mean he voluntarily gutted it?  Or do you mean he was compelled by
higher-ups to gut it?  Is there an archived pre-gut version?

Will




**************
Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Ken Arromdee
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Ken Arromdee <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If he is telling the truth it seems like a perfectly legitimate request.
> Wikipedia obviously cares about the issue enough to have Wikipedia articles
> covering the subject and put out press releases mentioning it.  If so, then
> Wikipedia should care enough to get those correct.

This controversy has been going on for a long while now, and I just
want to say something to both Jimmy and Larry:

Suck it up, and take your petty fight elsewhere! I don't know what
happened in the early days of wikipedia, and I don't much care to. You
have different versions of the same story, and the constant carping is
getting tiring. And wikipedia and wikipedians are getting caught right
in the middle. Wikipedia is getting a bad rep because of all this, and
many different users are locked in an endless struggle trying to do
either Jimmy's or Larry's bidding.

We don't need it. This is an issue between *you two*, and every time
you start one of your diatribes or Jimmy asks for articles to be
changed, it puts us, the community, in an impossible situation. It
needs to end.

So, on behalf of those who actually write wikipedia, I say: suck it
the hell up!

Larry, Jimmy readily admits that you where the original
Editor-in-Chief of wikipedia, and with helping to form some of the
early core policies. Isn't that enough? You've already basically
denounced wikipedia in as many ways and places you can think of (not
least this thread), why would you even want to be considered one of
its chief architects? You've got a whole project to yourself, I
suggest you stick to improving that.

Jimmy, stop getting involved in the articles that concern yourself,
Larry and the history of wikipedia. It's an impossible conflict of
interest, not only for you, but for the wikipedians that are loyal to
you (who, again, are put in an impossible situation). You know better
than anyone that the wikipedia process works beautifully. Trust the
process that works for the rest of the encyclopedia, and stay the hell
away and let the editors sort it out. I think you have enough insight
to realize that you're not neutral on the issue.

So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash it out away
from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
need it.

Rant over.

--Oskar

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Doc glasgow
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:

> This controversy has been going on for a long while now, and I just
> want to say something to both Jimmy and Larry:
>
> Suck it up, and take your petty fight elsewhere! I don't know what
> happened in the early days of wikipedia, and I don't much care to. You
> have different versions of the same story, and the constant carping is
> getting tiring. And wikipedia and wikipedians are getting caught right
> in the middle. Wikipedia is getting a bad rep because of all this, and
> many different users are locked in an endless struggle trying to do
> either Jimmy's or Larry's bidding.
>
> We don't need it. This is an issue between *you two*, and every time
> you start one of your diatribes or Jimmy asks for articles to be
> changed, it puts us, the community, in an impossible situation. It
> needs to end.
>
> So, on behalf of those who actually write wikipedia, I say: suck it
> the hell up!
>
> Larry, Jimmy readily admits that you where the original
> Editor-in-Chief of wikipedia, and with helping to form some of the
> early core policies. Isn't that enough? You've already basically
> denounced wikipedia in as many ways and places you can think of (not
> least this thread), why would you even want to be considered one of
> its chief architects? You've got a whole project to yourself, I
> suggest you stick to improving that.
>
> Jimmy, stop getting involved in the articles that concern yourself,
> Larry and the history of wikipedia. It's an impossible conflict of
> interest, not only for you, but for the wikipedians that are loyal to
> you (who, again, are put in an impossible situation). You know better
> than anyone that the wikipedia process works beautifully. Trust the
> process that works for the rest of the encyclopedia, and stay the hell
> away and let the editors sort it out. I think you have enough insight
> to realize that you're not neutral on the issue.
>
> So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash it out away
> from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
> need it.
>
> Rant over.
>
> --Oskar
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Thank you!

That's about the most balanced analysis I've read yet. Far better than
most of the pledges of allegiance to Jimmy, or the "two minute hate"
response to Larry, that we've had on this list.

As long as neutral people write the relevant articles, most of us can
either stop caring, or draw our own conclusions on who (if anyone) is
deluded, self-deluded, spinning, lying or otherwise manipulating history.

Me, I'll go back to adopting the mantra of a wise man: "Decline to
participate, sorry"


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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Sam Korn
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:37 PM, doc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>> This controversy has been going on for a long while now, and I just
>> want to say something to both Jimmy and Larry:
>>
>> Suck it up, and take your petty fight elsewhere! I don't know what
>> happened in the early days of wikipedia, and I don't much care to. You
>> have different versions of the same story, and the constant carping is
>> getting tiring. And wikipedia and wikipedians are getting caught right
>> in the middle. Wikipedia is getting a bad rep because of all this, and
>> many different users are locked in an endless struggle trying to do
>> either Jimmy's or Larry's bidding.
>>
>> We don't need it. This is an issue between *you two*, and every time
>> you start one of your diatribes or Jimmy asks for articles to be
>> changed, it puts us, the community, in an impossible situation. It
>> needs to end.
>>
>> So, on behalf of those who actually write wikipedia, I say: suck it
>> the hell up!
>>
>> Larry, Jimmy readily admits that you where the original
>> Editor-in-Chief of wikipedia, and with helping to form some of the
>> early core policies. Isn't that enough? You've already basically
>> denounced wikipedia in as many ways and places you can think of (not
>> least this thread), why would you even want to be considered one of
>> its chief architects? You've got a whole project to yourself, I
>> suggest you stick to improving that.
>>
>> Jimmy, stop getting involved in the articles that concern yourself,
>> Larry and the history of wikipedia. It's an impossible conflict of
>> interest, not only for you, but for the wikipedians that are loyal to
>> you (who, again, are put in an impossible situation). You know better
>> than anyone that the wikipedia process works beautifully. Trust the
>> process that works for the rest of the encyclopedia, and stay the hell
>> away and let the editors sort it out. I think you have enough insight
>> to realize that you're not neutral on the issue.
>>
>> So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash it out away
>> from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
>> need it.
>>
>> Rant over.
>>
>> --Oskar
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> Thank you!
>
> That's about the most balanced analysis I've read yet. Far better than
> most of the pledges of allegiance to Jimmy, or the "two minute hate"
> response to Larry, that we've had on this list.
>
> As long as neutral people write the relevant articles, most of us can
> either stop caring, or draw our own conclusions on who (if anyone) is
> deluded, self-deluded, spinning, lying or otherwise manipulating history.
>
> Me, I'll go back to adopting the mantra of a wise man: "Decline to
> participate, sorry"

Hear, hear (to both of you)!

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Larry Sanger-2
I'm sure I'll have more to say about posts to this list from the last 24
hours or so, but I did want to respond to this.

Various people said:
> >> So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash
> it out away
> >> from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
> >> need it.
> >>
> >> Rant over.
> > Thank you!
> Hear, hear (to both of you)!

You are misunderstanding what's going on here.  Jimmy Wales has been lying
about me and my role in this project.  This is a SERIOUS PROBLEM, and I
frankly resent your implicit dismissal of my concerns.

This isn't "just more of the same"; I am *not* asking for the community's
resolution on the issue of "who is founder."  That really *would* be inane,
but it isn't what I am doing.  You would know this, by the way, if you had
actually read my open letter to Jimmy Wales.

I am speaking out first time, publicly, by saying that Jimmy Wales has been
lying about me in a way that is self-serving.  If you don't care about that,
that's your prerogative.  You don't need to announce to the world that you
don't care.  There *are* a lot of people who *do* care.  I'm speaking to
*those* people.

Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not only on this list,
but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is really an open,
transparent, democratic project devoted to free speech.  If he wants to take
responsibility, as he does, as sole founder of the project, to represent
himself that way to the world, and in other respects speak on behalf of the
project--which he does, whether you like it or not--then he ought to be held
to a higher standard than most.

If you don't like my message, that's fine, but do not try to deny my right
to get it out there.

--Larry


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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
2009/4/10 Larry Sanger <[hidden email]>:

> Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not only on this list,
> but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is really an open,
> transparent, democratic project devoted to free speech.


It isn't the last two of those things. You need to reread "What
Wikiipedia Is Not":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT

This list is not a free ranting green ink zone. It's a working list
for the project itself. In practice it's stuff of interest to those
working on the project; those people here have pretty clearly said
"thanks Larry, we get your point, it's still irrelevant."


> If you don't like my message, that's fine, but do not try to deny my right
> to get it out there.


You've gotten it to here. Thanks, message received.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Larry Sanger-2
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Larry Sanger
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I'm sure I'll have more to say about posts to this list from the last 24
> hours or so, but I did want to respond to this.
>
> Various people said:
> > >> So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash
> > it out away
> > >> from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
> > >> need it.
> > >>
> > >> Rant over.
> > > Thank you!
> > Hear, hear (to both of you)!
>
> You are misunderstanding what's going on here.  Jimmy Wales has been lying
> about me and my role in this project.  This is a SERIOUS PROBLEM, and I
> frankly resent your implicit dismissal of my concerns.
>
> This isn't "just more of the same"; I am *not* asking for the community's
> resolution on the issue of "who is founder."  That really *would* be inane,
> but it isn't what I am doing.  You would know this, by the way, if you had
> actually read my open letter to Jimmy Wales.
>
> I am speaking out first time, publicly, by saying that Jimmy Wales has been
> lying about me in a way that is self-serving.


This is far from the first time that you've spoken about it publicly, Larry.


>  If you don't care about that,
> that's your prerogative.  You don't need to announce to the world that you
> don't care.  There *are* a lot of people who *do* care.  I'm speaking to
> *those* people.


Chosing this venue, however, is an assertion by you that wikien-l is
populated by people who do care - and the responses are indicating
otherwise.

Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not only on this list,

> but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is really an open,
> transparent, democratic project devoted to free speech.  If he wants to
> take
> responsibility, as he does, as sole founder of the project, to represent
> himself that way to the world, and in other respects speak on behalf of the
> project--which he does, whether you like it or not--then he ought to be
> held
> to a higher standard than most.
>
> If you don't like my message, that's fine, but do not try to deny my right
> to get it out there.


Your attitude shows a complete disdain for the purpose and subscribers to
wikien-l.  This is not a public bulletin board.  This is not a printing
press you own.  If we tell you this is not the right place, then you have no
property rights over the medium or our inboxes to insist that we continue to
receive your messages here.

If you believe that you have a right to "raise hell" on this list...   I
request that the list moderators moderate Larry immediately.

That's not what wikien-l is for.


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
2009/4/10 George Herbert <[hidden email]>:

> If you believe that you have a right to "raise hell" on this list...   I
> request that the list moderators moderate Larry immediately.


So far it's only been respect for his role in the founding of the site
that's stopped that from happening.

I'd hope he'd know how to comport himself with more dignity.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Doc glasgow
David Gerard wrote:
<snip>
>
> So far it's only been respect for his role in the founding of the site
> that's stopped that from happening.
>
> - d.
>


You mean co-founding, surely? ;)

Scott

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
2009/4/10 doc <[hidden email]>:
> David Gerard wrote:

>> So far it's only been respect for his role in the founding of the site
>> that's stopped that from happening.

> You mean co-founding, surely? ;)


*cough* The whole event was before my time, so I won't assert anything
I don't have sufficient third-party references for!


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Doc glasgow
In reply to this post by George William Herbert
George Herbert wrote:
> That's not what wikien-l is for.
>
>


So, to raise a more important point, which should be more pertinent to
the purpose of this list, and of more immediate concern to Wikipedia's
integrity.

I thought I should alert the august and serious readers of this list, to
the fact that we now have a "Requests for Comment" on the pressing
question of whether or not we should include Richard Gere's rumoured
altercation with a Gerbil in his biography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gere#Gerbil

I mean, why discuss founders and co-founders when we have other Serius
Bizniz on the wiki?

Scott

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Phil Nash-2
In reply to this post by Larry Sanger-2
Larry Sanger wrote:

>> I'm sure I'll have more to say about posts to this list from the
>> last 24 hours or so, but I did want to respond to this.
>>
>> Various people said:
>>>>> So, please, both of you, get yourself some blogs and hash
>>> it out away
>>>>> from wikipedia servers, and away from community at large. We don't
>>>>> need it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rant over.
>>>> Thank you!
>>> Hear, hear (to both of you)!
>>
>> You are misunderstanding what's going on here.  Jimmy Wales has been
>> lying about me and my role in this project.  This is a SERIOUS
>> PROBLEM, and I frankly resent your implicit dismissal of my concerns.
>>
>> This isn't "just more of the same"; I am *not* asking for the
>> community's resolution on the issue of "who is founder."  That
>> really *would* be inane, but it isn't what I am doing.  You would
>> know this, by the way, if you had actually read my open letter to
>> Jimmy Wales.
>>
>> I am speaking out first time, publicly, by saying that Jimmy Wales
>> has been lying about me in a way that is self-serving.  If you don't
>> care about that, that's your prerogative.  You don't need to
>> announce to the world that you don't care.  There *are* a lot of
>> people who *do* care.  I'm speaking to *those* people.
>>
>> Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not only on
>> this list, but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is
>> really an open, transparent, democratic project devoted to free
>> speech.

It is not, and you have no "right" to anything other than as an ordinary
user of Wikipedia. [[WP:SOAPBOX]] and [[WP:POINT]] spring to mind. Your
personal disagreements have no place either in Wikipedia or on this list, so
I strongly advise you to take them elsewhere. As an Admin, I'd have no
qualms about blocking you indefinitely if this does not immediately stop.
Whereas you might also have sockpuppets and meatpuppets, their blocking
would follow as sure as night follows day. But the bottom line is that this
disruption is unseemly and intolerable. Some of us have an encyclopedia to
build, and personal disputes are inimical to that purpose.

Please stop wasting our time.




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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Larry Sanger-2
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Larry Sanger
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not only on this list,
> but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is really an open,
> transparent, democratic project devoted to free speech.

This is completely untrue. Both wikipedia and this mailing-list are
run by the Wikimedia foundation, a private entity, meaning that they
(and, by extension, the moderators and the administrators on
wikipedia) can absolutely decide what does or does not go on here.

This is a concept you should be very familiar with. On the Citizendium
Fundamentals page ( http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Fundamentals )
you find this little nugget of information: "...there will be a
process for rapidly removing rulebreakers from the project. While most
people will enjoy the privilege of contributing to the Citizendium if
they are able to make a positive difference, there is a blanket right
neither to contribute nor to participate in the project's governance."
As I understand it, you are quite happy to suspend the editing rights
of anyone that's causing trouble or causing strife within the
community (something I don't have any problem with; it's your project,
do what you like).

Wikipedia is likewise not a free speech zone, nor is it some sort of
grand democratic experiment. Just because anyone can edit initially,
it doesn't mean that we have to keep what you say live on our site.
Same thing goes for our mailing-list.

If you spend even a little time on our site, you'll find that there
have literally been hundreds (if not thousands) of extremely
destructive trolls who have made exactly the same argument that you
are making. "You're restricting my freedom of speech! I'm gonna report
you to the Hague!" By acting like this, and using this argument,
you're rapidly becoming part of that group. Is that something you
desire? Let me ask you, if someone made that argument on CZ, what
would you do?

I admire both you and Jimmy quite a bit, but on this issue, you're
both acting like petulant children. Grow the fuck up.

--Oskar

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Larry Sanger-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard said:

> > Moreover, I assert that it is my right to raise hell not
> only on this
> > list, but also on Jimmy Wales' user talk page--if this is really an
> > open, transparent, democratic project devoted to free speech.
>
>
> It isn't the last two of those things. You need to reread
> "What Wikiipedia Is Not":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT

It certainly has changed since I wrote it.

It looks as if you're trying to imply Wikipedia is not devoted to free
speech, even in discussions about the community--even in discussions about
the roles and public behavior of the most prominent representative of the
community.  Perhaps you need to rethink what you're trying to say, David.

> This list is not a free ranting green ink zone.

I resent the implication, David, that I am "ranting."  I am not.

--Larry


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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Oskar Sigvardsson
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Larry Sanger
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> It certainly has changed since I wrote it.
>
> It looks as if you're trying to imply Wikipedia is not devoted to free
> speech, even in discussions about the community--even in discussions about
> the roles and public behavior of the most prominent representative of the
> community.  Perhaps you need to rethink what you're trying to say, David.

No, he's exactly right. Wikipedia is not, and it has never been a free
speech zone. It has never been a goal of the project to provide people
a platform for people to say whatever they want. Wikipedia is
absolutely not "devoted to free speech".

See, we're an *encyclopedia*, not a public forum. We may let anyone
edit, but we're always going to be first and foremost an encyclopedia.
Everything else is second to that.

 If you want free speech, use your blog. You can say whatever you want there.

--Oskar

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