An open letter to Jimmy Wales

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Ray Saintonge
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
> Suck it up, and take your petty fight elsewhere! I don't know what
> happened in the early days of wikipedia, and I don't much care to. You
> have different versions of the same story, and the constant carping is
> getting tiring. And wikipedia and wikipedians are getting caught right
> in the middle. Wikipedia is getting a bad rep because of all this, and
> many different users are locked in an endless struggle trying to do
> either Jimmy's or Larry's bidding.

You're assuming that the general public gives a damn enough to affect
the reputation.

Ec

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Brian J Mingus
In reply to this post by WJhonson
Lets just be clear that this is an IMHO that has nothing to do with my point
- the source of authority on the subject. All primary sources are biased in
that respect.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 12:24 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian <[hidden email]>
> To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:54 pm
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales
>
> In my opinion what Wikipedia says about this matter is entirely
> irrelevant.
> Wikipedia is not a source of authority on the matter - the Wikimedia
> Foundation is.>>
> -------------------------
>
> Foundations like companies are mostly the worst possible historians.
> They have a vested interest in rewriting history to match their current
> goals.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Anthony-73
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony <[hidden email]>
To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales


And don't forget
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Homeopathy/Draft&diff=prev&oldid=100448877>>
_______________________________________________


So apparently Citizendium allows free speech but only if you are very
polite, which includes not pointing out other people's breach of the
rules.
(I had written a much more pointy response but then deleted it.)

Will "is this horse dead yet" Johnson




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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Brian J Mingus
Brian, the foundation is not the "source of authority" on what did or
didn't happen years before they existed.  The sources of authority
would be those people who were actually present and involved in the
situation.

I'm sure that the entire company wasn't solely Jimmy and Larry.  There
are probably others who were employees or whatever who could also be
interviewed on the matter.

As well there are archives of what Jimmy and Larry did or didn't say,
and when and to whom.  The foundation really is irrelevant in writing
the "History of Wikipedia: The First Two Years".  They aren't even a
primary source.

Will Johnson




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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

FT2
In reply to this post by Seth Finkelstein
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Seth Finkelstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What's so interesting in specific here, is that only now has Larry Sanger's

evidence reached
> some of the relatively tiny number of core editors who are highly
> influential in shaping the relevant Wikipedia articles.



The article where this is covered, [[History of Wikipedia]] had a neutral
balanced and stable assessment of the Sanger/Wales dispute and
"founder/co-founder" issue, for years now.It had nothing to do with "Larry
Sanger's evidence" reaching a "tiny number of core editors", and everything
to do with mass participation. It was well described as far back as 2007 and
(unless vandalized) is so today.

FT2
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Brian J Mingus
In reply to this post by WJhonson
Jimmy Wales is part of the Wikimedia Foundation.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:35 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brian, the foundation is not the "source of authority" on what did or
> didn't happen years before they existed.  The sources of authority
> would be those people who were actually present and involved in the
> situation.
>
> I'm sure that the entire company wasn't solely Jimmy and Larry.  There
> are probably others who were employees or whatever who could also be
> interviewed on the matter.
>
> As well there are archives of what Jimmy and Larry did or didn't say,
> and when and to whom.  The foundation really is irrelevant in writing
> the "History of Wikipedia: The First Two Years".  They aren't even a
> primary source.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

WJhonson
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian <[hidden email]>
To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 3:56 am
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Jimmy Wales is part of the Wikimedia Foundation.

------------------
Yes and many others who were there at the beginning, are not now part
of the Foundation.  The Foundation isn't relevant to writing a history,
that's my point.  They are not the seat of authority on that matter and
they aren't even a primary source because most of them weren't a party
to the early machinations.  The people who make up the Foundation today
are relative  newcomers.  At least for this particular purpose.

Will Johnson




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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 5:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony <[hidden email]>
> To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 7:51 pm
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales
>
>
> And don't forget
>
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Homeopathy/Draft&diff=prev&oldid=100448877
> >>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> So apparently Citizendium allows free speech but only if you are very
> polite, which includes not pointing out other people's breach of the
> rules.
> (I had written a much more pointy response but then deleted it.)


No, this has nothing to do with free speech.  Both Larry and Jimbo have a
right to remove unhelpful complaints, but they were both wrong because they
removed legitimate complaints.
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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Anthony-73
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Pot meet kettle.
>> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3AHomeopathy%2FDraft&diff=100448194&oldid=100448185
>>
>
> And don't forget
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Homeopathy/Draft&diff=prev&oldid=100448877

And that right there is why Citizendium will never be as good as wikipedia.

--Oskar

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Ian Woollard
Ironically, even the conservapedia homeopathy article is probably more
accurate than the citizendium one in this case:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homeopathy

On 11/04/2009, Oskar Sigvardsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Pot meet kettle.
>>> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3AHomeopathy%2FDraft&diff=100448194&oldid=100448185
>>>
>>
>> And don't forget
>> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Homeopathy/Draft&diff=prev&oldid=100448877
>
> And that right there is why Citizendium will never be as good as wikipedia.
>
> --Oskar
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


--
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be *much* better. Life in an imperfectly perfect
world would be pretty ghastly though.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Phil Nash-2
In reply to this post by Oskar Sigvardsson
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pot meet kettle.
>>>> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3AHomeopathy%2FDraft&diff=100448194&oldid=100448185

"The Constabulary"? How precious! Yet another reason why I won't be going
there.






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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Fred Bauder-2
> Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
>>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pot meet kettle.
>>>>> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3AHomeopathy%2FDraft&diff=100448194&oldid=100448185
>
> "The Constabulary"? How precious! Yet another reason why I won't be going
> there.

"A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making
complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the
behavior of another Citizen, e-mail [hidden email]. It is
contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See
also CZ:Professionalism."

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Nocomplaints

Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
complaints...

Fred Bauder



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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
2009/4/11 Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>:

> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
> complaints...


Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that
wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its
associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
2009/4/11 Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>:

> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Nocomplaints
>
> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
> complaints...

On Wikipedia, if you have an issue with an editor, you post a message
on his/her talk page. What do the rules on any outside website have to
do with the way things are done on Wikipedia?

Michel

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Doc glasgow
In reply to this post by Ian Woollard
Ian Woollard wrote:
> Ironically, even the conservapedia homeopathy article is probably more
> accurate than the citizendium one in this case:
>
> http://www.conservapedia.com/Homeopathy
>

I /really/ don't think Wikipedia wants a pissing contest here.

Do we really want to compare the worst article we can find on
Citizendium with Wikipedians worst?????

I think we'd clearly lose.



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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
2009/4/11 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:
> 2009/4/11 Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
>> complaints...
>
>
> Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that
> wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its
> associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising.

I don't get the point.

In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you
criticise the Dear Leader.

Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia?

Michel

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:03 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2009/4/11 Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
>> complaints...
>
>
> Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that
> wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its
> associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising.

Can I request that this thread now end and that we don't engage in a
wholly unedifying attack on Larry, Citizendium or anyone else.

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Michel Vuijlsteke-2
2009/4/11 Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]>:

> I don't get the point.
> In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you
> criticise the Dear Leader.
> Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia?


No, it's that wikien-l has a civility rule too. And saying "I'M GOING
TO REPEAT MYSELF FOREVER UNTIL YOU AGREE WITH ME" falls afoul of it.

You appear to be comparing Citizendium to North Korea.


- d.

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Carcharoth
In reply to this post by Sam Korn
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:03 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2009/4/11 Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
>>> complaints...
>>
>>
>> Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that
>> wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its
>> associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising.
>
> Can I request that this thread now end and that we don't engage in a
> wholly unedifying attack on Larry, Citizendium or anyone else.

Seconded. And that's my last post to this thread.

Carcharoth

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Re: An open letter to Jimmy Wales

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
2009/4/11 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:

> 2009/4/11 Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I don't get the point.
>> In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you
>> criticise the Dear Leader.
>> Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia?
>
>
> No, it's that wikien-l has a civility rule too. And saying "I'M GOING
> TO REPEAT MYSELF FOREVER UNTIL YOU AGREE WITH ME" falls afoul of it.
>
> You appear to be comparing Citizendium to North Korea.

There's very probably an article on Wikipedia somewhere explaining
just what you did there.

/end of discussion for me too.

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