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Another WP redesign

David Gerard-2
I found this one visually appealing:

http://dribbble.com/wirwoluf/projects/104912-wikipedia-redesign

No doubt others will now take it apart :-)


- d.

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Re: Another WP redesign

Magnus Manske-2
One thing this and previous designs agree upon is to use a three-column
layout for content. On today's wide screens, reduced line length for the
main text should improve readability, and still use the side columns
pragmatically; it seems the TOC usually goes to the left, and infoboxes to
the right.


On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:20 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found this one visually appealing:
>
> http://dribbble.com/wirwoluf/projects/104912-wikipedia-redesign
>
> No doubt others will now take it apart :-)
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Another WP redesign

David Gerard-2
On 28 January 2013 21:59, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One thing this and previous designs agree upon is to use a three-column
> layout for content. On today's wide screens, reduced line length for the
> main text should improve readability, and still use the side columns
> pragmatically; it seems the TOC usually goes to the left, and infoboxes to
> the right.


If we detect a wide screen (I have a 1920x1200 at work), going at
least two-column would definitely be a good idea.

Is anyone working on responsiveness in Vector?


- d.

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Re: Another WP redesign

stevertigo-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
There is an ideal column width for readability, which is well understood in
newspaper publishing but less so in books and even less so on the web. I
think its around 10 words.

-Steven
On Jan 28, 2013 2:00 PM, "Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> One thing this and previous designs agree upon is to use a three-column
> layout for content. On today's wide screens, reduced line length for the
> main text should improve readability, and still use the side columns
> pragmatically; it seems the TOC usually goes to the left, and infoboxes to
> the right.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:20 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I found this one visually appealing:
> >
> > http://dribbble.com/wirwoluf/projects/104912-wikipedia-redesign
> >
> > No doubt others will now take it apart :-)
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
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Re: Another WP redesign

David Gerard-2
On 28 January 2013 22:17, stevertigo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is an ideal column width for readability, which is well understood in
> newspaper publishing but less so in books and even less so on the web. I
> think its around 10 words.


Trouble there is that newspapers are portrait and have pages, but
screens are usually landscape and (the important bit) stretch
indefinitely vertically. A good example of the problem with doing it
like a newspaper is https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/
- brilliant article, but on a laptop screen the layout is just really
confusing.


- d.

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Re: Another WP redesign

Steven Walling
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Magnus Manske
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> One thing this and previous designs agree upon is to use a three-column
> layout for content. On today's wide screens, reduced line length for the
> main text should improve readability, and still use the side columns
> pragmatically; it seems the TOC usually goes to the left, and infoboxes to
> the right.
>

Word.
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Re: Another WP redesign

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Trouble there is that newspapers are portrait and have pages, but
> screens are usually landscape and (the important bit) stretch
> indefinitely vertically. A good example of the problem with doing it
> like a newspaper is https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/
> - brilliant article, but on a laptop screen the layout is just really
> confusing.

And newspaper layouts are handcrafted for exactly one width and
height. It's hard enough to get articles to display nicely with
embedded images and infoboxes with a single column - could that really
work multi column? Maybe a better use of the extra horizontal space
would be to expand some of the embedded images and infoboxes out of
the text?

I was going to point to theglobalmail.org as an interesting example of
a multi-column layout on the web (horizontal scrolling!) but it looks
like they've caved in and gone to a conventional one column vertical
layout.

Steve

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Re: Another WP redesign

stevertigo-2
Newspaper columns are not all of uniform size. Layout editors choose one
width from within a certain readable range of column widths. Different
stories may be of different widths, but a particular story will keep to the
same width, as different widths would look strange. Of course if a story
jumps to another page, it can have a different width.

On the web the same principle applies that columns of text which are too
narrow (when pinched by photos etc) or too wide (single column on a wide
screen with browser at full width) then its probably going to make readers
unhappy.
-S
On Jan 28, 2013 4:27 PM, "Steve Bennett" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Trouble there is that newspapers are portrait and have pages, but
> > screens are usually landscape and (the important bit) stretch
> > indefinitely vertically. A good example of the problem with doing it
> > like a newspaper is https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/
> > - brilliant article, but on a laptop screen the layout is just really
> > confusing.
>
> And newspaper layouts are handcrafted for exactly one width and
> height. It's hard enough to get articles to display nicely with
> embedded images and infoboxes with a single column - could that really
> work multi column? Maybe a better use of the extra horizontal space
> would be to expand some of the embedded images and infoboxes out of
> the text?
>
> I was going to point to theglobalmail.org as an interesting example of
> a multi-column layout on the web (horizontal scrolling!) but it looks
> like they've caved in and gone to a conventional one column vertical
> layout.
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Another WP redesign

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 28 January 2013 20:20, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I found this one visually appealing:
>
> http://dribbble.com/wirwoluf/projects/104912-wikipedia-redesign
>
> No doubt others will now take it apart :-)

Minor quibbles:

* The header hits a common problem - treating read/talk/edit/history
as four different interfaces to the same page, while they're really
three interfaces to the page (read/edit/history) and one link to
another page (talk) with its own three interfaces.

* The three-column system will look strangely constrained for pages
with very short (<<1 screen height) infoboxes or very few headings.

* It's not clear what would happen to our usual mass of footer
navboxes, most of which assume full-width screens. Perhaps they could
be migrated to the side columns?

Major quibbles

* Languages have got lost entirely! (again...)

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: Another WP redesign

David Gerard-2
On 29 January 2013 11:46, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * The header hits a common problem - treating read/talk/edit/history
> as four different interfaces to the same page, while they're really
> three interfaces to the page (read/edit/history) and one link to
> another page (talk) with its own three interfaces.


I think that may be deliberate, per comment here from the designer:
"But maybe more people should talk or edit. :)"

http://dribbble.com/shots/900712-Wikipedia-redesign-header-colors

I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?


- d.

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Re: Another WP redesign

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Andrew Gray-3
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Minor quibbles:
>
> * The header hits a common problem - treating read/talk/edit/history
> as four different interfaces to the same page, while they're really
> three interfaces to the page (read/edit/history) and one link to
> another page (talk) with its own three interfaces.

So there are six interfaces. You expose the four most important ones
this way, you make talk:edit a button or something that's part of the
talk page itself, and you ignore talk:history. That's for nerds. (I'm
not sure if I've ever looked at a talk page history. It's pretty
rare.)

In reality though, I think using tabs for actions is the wrong
approach (and is after all what the old skin did). Buttons with
standard glyphs, sparingly used, would work better. A big pencil
button for "edit", a less prominent "discuss this" button for talk,
with history squirrelled away somewhere. You don't need a view button
- standard behaviour would be to have something like a clickable page
title or a "<- Roman Empire" link on those other pages.

> * The three-column system will look strangely constrained for pages
> with very short (<<1 screen height) infoboxes or very few headings.

Mmmm...dunno about strange. Lots of blogs etc have wide margins.

> * It's not clear what would happen to our usual mass of footer
> navboxes, most of which assume full-width screens. Perhaps they could
> be migrated to the side columns?

Or they could remain full-width. That'd only be a problem if the
article was short but had long right-hand-side infoboxes. You could
deal with that by making the infobox column scrollable.

>
> Major quibbles
>
> * Languages have got lost entirely! (again...)

Minor detail. It'd be great to have some cues that show which of the
interwiki links have significant amounts of content (especially any
with more content than the one you're looking at).

Steve

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Re: Another WP redesign

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
> thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
> Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?


I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)


- d.

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Re: Another WP redesign

Magnus Manske-2
For those of you who like to try out a similar three-column layout, this
just fresh from the presses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/common.css

(activates on wide screens only)


On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
> > thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
> > Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?
>
>
> I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
> redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Another WP redesign

Steve Bennett-8
Hey, that works :)

I put it on userstyles.org. So if you use the "Stylish" plugin for
Chrome or Firefox, you can add it here:

http://userstyles.org/styles/82333/wikipedia-3-columns-magnus-manske

Steve

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Magnus Manske
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> For those of you who like to try out a similar three-column layout, this
> just fresh from the presses:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/common.css
>
> (activates on wide screens only)
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
>> > thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
>> > Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?
>>
>>
>> I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
>> redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: Another WP redesign

Steve Bennett-8
A couple of screenshots to save people the effort:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-normal.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns-more.png

Looking at these, it's remarkable that we've put up with such a bad
layout for wide screens for so long. I mean, seriously - that
eiger-normal.png looks *awful*. The text is far too wide to read
comfortably, and then there's this huge white space next to the
contents box.

And all with a tiny amount of CSS. Great job, Magnus!

Steve

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey, that works :)
>
> I put it on userstyles.org. So if you use the "Stylish" plugin for
> Chrome or Firefox, you can add it here:
>
> http://userstyles.org/styles/82333/wikipedia-3-columns-magnus-manske
>
> Steve
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Magnus Manske
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For those of you who like to try out a similar three-column layout, this
>> just fresh from the presses:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/common.css
>>
>> (activates on wide screens only)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
>>> > thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
>>> > Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?
>>>
>>>
>>> I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
>>> redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Re: Another WP redesign

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:46:51 +0000, Andrew Gray wrote:

> * The three-column system will look strangely constrained for pages
> with very short (<<1 screen height) infoboxes or very few headings.
>
> * It's not clear what would happen to our usual mass of footer
> navboxes, most of which assume full-width screens. Perhaps they could
> be migrated to the side columns?

That's the trouble with "redesigns" that are presented as static
image files; you can't tell how the proposed design would adapt to
variable content, or for that matter to variable screen sizes.


--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Another WP redesign

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
Thanks! I'll be fiddling with it some more; now that TOC and thumbnails are
in separate columns, they don't really need the grey background etc.

Also, help would be appreciated; for example, I can't figure out how to
top-align the TOC (position:absolute) and have it "bump down" left-side
thumbnails (position:relative) at the same time.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of screenshots to save people the effort:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-normal.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns-more.png
>
> Looking at these, it's remarkable that we've put up with such a bad
> layout for wide screens for so long. I mean, seriously - that
> eiger-normal.png looks *awful*. The text is far too wide to read
> comfortably, and then there's this huge white space next to the
> contents box.
>
> And all with a tiny amount of CSS. Great job, Magnus!
>
> Steve
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hey, that works :)
> >
> > I put it on userstyles.org. So if you use the "Stylish" plugin for
> > Chrome or Firefox, you can add it here:
> >
> > http://userstyles.org/styles/82333/wikipedia-3-columns-magnus-manske
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Magnus Manske
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> For those of you who like to try out a similar three-column layout, this
> >> just fresh from the presses:
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/common.css
> >>
> >> (activates on wide screens only)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to
> this
> >>> > thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
> >>> > Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
> >>> redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - d.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Another WP redesign

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
Update: Current Eiger page:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23027995/Eiger%20current.png

The TOC is partially obscured by the image, but it will pop into the
foreground if you push the mouse over it.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of screenshots to save people the effort:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-normal.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns-more.png
>
> Looking at these, it's remarkable that we've put up with such a bad
> layout for wide screens for so long. I mean, seriously - that
> eiger-normal.png looks *awful*. The text is far too wide to read
> comfortably, and then there's this huge white space next to the
> contents box.
>
> And all with a tiny amount of CSS. Great job, Magnus!
>
> Steve
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hey, that works :)
> >
> > I put it on userstyles.org. So if you use the "Stylish" plugin for
> > Chrome or Firefox, you can add it here:
> >
> > http://userstyles.org/styles/82333/wikipedia-3-columns-magnus-manske
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Magnus Manske
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> For those of you who like to try out a similar three-column layout, this
> >> just fresh from the presses:
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/common.css
> >>
> >> (activates on wide screens only)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:55 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to
> this
> >>> > thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
> >>> > Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
> >>> redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - d.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Another WP redesign

Mark
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
On 1/30/13 1:41 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> A couple of screenshots to save people the effort:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-normal.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns.png
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns-more.png
>
> Looking at these, it's remarkable that we've put up with such a bad
> layout for wide screens for so long. I mean, seriously - that
> eiger-normal.png looks *awful*. The text is far too wide to read
> comfortably, and then there's this huge white space next to the
> contents box.
>
> And all with a tiny amount of CSS. Great job, Magnus!
>

I like it as well. Actually, I recall a previous version from Magnus
that was sort of like this which I also liked; am I imagining that?

The main issue with the present layout, imo, is that wrapping text
around images produces clutter for no real gain when pages are so wide.
I do like wrapping text around images on narrower pages, such as a
typical book, or narrower portrait-format screens. In those cases, the
alternatives feel inferior to me. Narrow columns really don't work for
me: I use the IEEE and ACM 2-column article formats regularly in my day
job and do not find them either aesthetically pleasing or particularly
readable. And using a wider column without wrapping results in the image
taking up the whole page for a certain amount of the vertical space,
which is only sensible if it's a major object of discussion which should
narratively fit into the text, rather than a side illustration.

But at larger widths, you can put the side illustrations out in the
margin, because there is tons of space.

-Mark


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Re: Another WP redesign

Magnus Manske-2
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Mark <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/30/13 1:41 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:
>
>> A couple of screenshots to save people the effort:
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/**767553/eiger-normal.png<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-normal.png>
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/**767553/eiger-three-columns.png<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns.png>
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/**767553/eiger-three-columns-**more.png<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/eiger-three-columns-more.png>
>>
>> Looking at these, it's remarkable that we've put up with such a bad
>> layout for wide screens for so long. I mean, seriously - that
>> eiger-normal.png looks *awful*. The text is far too wide to read
>> comfortably, and then there's this huge white space next to the
>> contents box.
>>
>> And all with a tiny amount of CSS. Great job, Magnus!
>>
>>
> I like it as well. Actually, I recall a previous version from Magnus that
> was sort of like this which I also liked; am I imagining that?
>
> You don't imagine it, but the previous CSS one wasn't nearly as good, and
yet another one requires JavaScript (though it has more features; check
icons on top):
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/redefined/?page=Barack_Obama
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