Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

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Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a  
wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup language:
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html

We've been using MediaWiki as our office intranet over the years but  
it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because  
of the requirement that users learn wiki markup. For this reason  
we'll be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year for Apple's Wiki  
Server.

The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I  
hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia  
projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop  
many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally  
to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is  
"difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time-
consuming to learn.

I have little doubt that one day using wiki markup only to edit  
websites like Wikipedia will be seen as an anachronism, even more so  
as other alternatives to MediaWiki (such as Apple's Wiki Server) come  
online, but there's a few hurdles to overcome yet and they're not all  
technical ones as far as I can work out.

It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been made a  
high priority for Wikimedia, considering the fact that it was founded  
on the idea of broad participation. Although technical difficulties  
are often put forward as the reason, the biggest obstacle, it has  
often seemed to me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki  
markup as a way of protecting their territory and minimising  
participation by others. I've even had people argue that wiki markup  
is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to  
overcome before being allowed to edit Wikimedia projects. Somehow  
this needs to be overcome if WYSIWYG is to gain traction and get a  
higher priority it seems to me.

Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,  
particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor, and I wish you well.  
However, if integrating an editor into the current environment is so  
difficult maybe there needs to be a new approach, such as developing  
new software/syntax with some type of WYSIWYG editor built in from  
the start? Worth a discussion at least, I should imagine.

Cheers,
Christiaan

P.S. I originally posted this to [hidden email] but that  
was probably the wrong list to post to.
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Plyd-2
On 8/9/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a
> wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup language:
> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html

Do you know a sandbox where we could try it ?

Plyd
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
No, unfortunately, the only people I know who have access to it at  
this point are developers who went to Apple's developer conference on  
Monday, and who got a preview version of Mac OS X Server. And they're  
under a NDA.

Christiaan

On 9 Aug 2006, at 1:46 PM, Plyd wrote:

> On 8/9/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a
>> wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup  
>> language:
>> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html
>
> Do you know a sandbox where we could try it ?
>
> Plyd
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Steve Bennett-4
On 8/9/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Monday, and who got a preview version of Mac OS X Server. And they're
> under a NDA.

A leaky one! :)

Steve
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
On 9 Aug 2006, at 2:00 PM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 8/9/06, Christiaan wrote:
>> Monday, and who got a preview version of Mac OS X Server. And they're
>> under a NDA.
>
> A leaky one! :)

I hope so! :)

Christiaan
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Edward Z. Yang
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

What I'd like to see is how they're handling the diffs.  That'll be
interesting for formatted text.
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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+lssIDWeWl+rh9Xelf4WWjI=
=CEpz
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Stan Shebs
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
Christiaan Briggs wrote:

>On 9 Aug 2006, at 2:00 PM, Steve Bennett wrote:
>
>
>>On 8/9/06, Christiaan wrote:
>>
>>>Monday, and who got a preview version of Mac OS X Server. And they're
>>>under a NDA.
>>>
>>A leaky one! :)
>>
>
>I hope so! :)
>
But beware, this mailing list includes an Apple employee who's right
now sitting at a table in Moscone Center watching WWDC attendees
straggle in... :-)

Stan

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Walter Vermeir-2
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
Christiaan Briggs schreef:
[cut]
> The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I
> hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia
>  projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop
>  many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally
>  to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is
> "difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time-
>  consuming to learn.
[cut]

[MediaWiki] will also be developed by full-time employees of the private
organizations Wikia.com (the company of Jimbo) and Socialtext.com. This
should increase strongly the development of MediaWiki. A new component
to MediaWiki is expected to make "wysiwyg"-editing possible. This means
that you will have an editbox that looks like the compose window of
Hotmail or Gmail with options the edit a page without to see all the
sourcetext with all the code. There is hope that this will lower the
barrier for new people to work on the projects.
http://wikiwyg.net/ - with a picture how it will (possibly) look like
http://www.socialtext.com/node/90
http://ross.typepad.com/blog/2006/08/wysiwyg_and_wik.html

(Wikizine number 37)

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
Fantastic, thanks Walter.

Christiaan

On 9 Aug 2006, at 6:01 PM, Walter Vermeir wrote:

> [MediaWiki] will also be developed by full-time employees of the  
> private
> organizations Wikia.com (the company of Jimbo) and Socialtext.com.  
> This
> should increase strongly the development of MediaWiki. A new component
> to MediaWiki is expected to make "wysiwyg"-editing possible. This  
> means
> that you will have an editbox that looks like the compose window of
> Hotmail or Gmail with options the edit a page without to see all the
> sourcetext with all the code. There is hope that this will lower the
> barrier for new people to work on the projects.
> http://wikiwyg.net/ - with a picture how it will (possibly) look like
> http://www.socialtext.com/node/90
> http://ross.typepad.com/blog/2006/08/wysiwyg_and_wik.html
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

mboverload
I don't know what kind of formatting you need in Wikipedia other than
italics.  We should make it as hard as possible to use stupid shit like
bold.

On 8/9/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Fantastic, thanks Walter.
>
> Christiaan
>
> On 9 Aug 2006, at 6:01 PM, Walter Vermeir wrote:
>
> > [MediaWiki] will also be developed by full-time employees of the
> > private
> > organizations Wikia.com (the company of Jimbo) and Socialtext.com.
> > This
> > should increase strongly the development of MediaWiki. A new component
> > to MediaWiki is expected to make "wysiwyg"-editing possible. This
> > means
> > that you will have an editbox that looks like the compose window of
> > Hotmail or Gmail with options the edit a page without to see all the
> > sourcetext with all the code. There is hope that this will lower the
> > barrier for new people to work on the projects.
> > http://wikiwyg.net/ - with a picture how it will (possibly) look like
> > http://www.socialtext.com/node/90
> > http://ross.typepad.com/blog/2006/08/wysiwyg_and_wik.html
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Simetrical
On 8/9/06, mboverload <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't know what kind of formatting you need in Wikipedia other than
> italics.  We should make it as hard as possible to use stupid shit like
> bold.

Like, the way it's our convention to bold the beginning of every
article's lead where we reference the name?
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 12:57:58PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a  
> wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup language:
> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html

[ looks ]

Oh, it's a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor on the front.

Yeah, we've got that.

> We've been using MediaWiki as our office intranet over the years but  
> it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because  
> of the requirement that users learn wiki markup. For this reason  
> we'll be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year for Apple's Wiki  
> Server.
>
> The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I  
> hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia  
> projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop  
> many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally  
> to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is  
> "difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time-
> consuming to learn.

With all due respect to your users, bullshit.

Number one, you don't actually *need* to use any markup at all.  Number
two, the markup you might *want* to use is so trivial, that I have to
say that anyone who can't be bothered to learn it -- it's just that:
they can't be bothered.

Screw 'em.

If you're not willing to learn the tools, you're not entitled to the
ease their use contributes to your life.  And good riddance.

I'm elitest, sure, but that outlook is *not*, IMHO.

> I have little doubt that one day using wiki markup only to edit  
> websites like Wikipedia will be seen as an anachronism, even more so  
> as other alternatives to MediaWiki (such as Apple's Wiki Server) come  
> online, but there's a few hurdles to overcome yet and they're not all  
> technical ones as far as I can work out.
>
> It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been made a  
> high priority for Wikimedia, considering the fact that it was founded  
> on the idea of broad participation. Although technical difficulties  
> are often put forward as the reason, the biggest obstacle, it has  
> often seemed to me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki  
> markup as a way of protecting their territory and minimising  
> participation by others. I've even had people argue that wiki markup  
> is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to  
> overcome before being allowed to edit Wikimedia projects. Somehow  
> this needs to be overcome if WYSIWYG is to gain traction and get a  
> higher priority it seems to me.

Bullshit.

There will need tobe markup in the internal storage format anyway; if
you want WYSIWYG, you bolt it on around the outside.  That's the only
design pattern that makes any sense at all.

Given that, I see no reason to penalize those who *prefer* power by
making the markup language inaccessible -- which I'd bet cash Apple has
done -- and if you want or need a WYG editor, put one on there.

But don't dis MediaWiki because the native interface is ... the native
interface.  That's just strawman.

> Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,  
> particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor, and I wish you well.  
> However, if integrating an editor into the current environment is so  
> difficult maybe there needs to be a new approach, such as developing  
> new software/syntax with some type of WYSIWYG editor built in from  
> the start? Worth a discussion at least, I should imagine.

I don't think so.

Rebuilding MediaWiki from scratch?  That's crazy talk.

If the problem is the weak definition of the markup language, then
precess that around until you get it stable enough to WYG in front of.

Anyone along the way for whom this isn't the right tool will no doubt
find something else.  Darwin lives.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                [hidden email]
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Jay Ashworth-2
On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 11:28:45AM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> I'm elitest, sure, but that outlook is *not*, IMHO.

I may be elitist, but clearly, I can't spell for shit.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
--
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St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

        The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Steve Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
On 8/10/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 12:57:58PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> > For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a
> > wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup language:
> > http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html
>
> [ looks ]
>
> Oh, it's a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor on the front.
>
> Yeah, we've got that.

Do we? I was thinking about this. Even the wikiwyg we looked at a
couple of weeks ago essentially forces you to edit wikitext, and
separately shows it to you. Do we have anything that works like Word,
for instance?

I ask this not as a clueless user, or on behalf of people who are too
lazy to learn syntax. But as someone who does a *lot* of editing in
MediaWiki, and who finds the "spot the mistake, click edit, find the
same spot in the code, change, save" cycle far too slow. Editing would
be a hell of a lot more efficient if one could simply click on the
place to edit, and start typing. I imagine the basic cycle looking
like this:

1. Click on the text.
2. A surrounding patch of text (a sentence? a paragraph?) is "locked"
(no one else can edit it) and highlighted, and somehow rendered
"editable".
3. Edit, drag text around etc. If necessary, mark other bits of text
as being "locked" as well so you can edit them.
4. Press a commit button.

I don't know that this would work well for more complex syntax like
tables, but even if it only worked for small, local changes (like typo
fixing) it would be a major improvement.

Steve
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
In your world the human should bend to the computer. My users think  
it should be the other way round.

You're not elitist Jay, you're just a prick.

Christiaan

On 10 Aug 2006, at 4:28 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 12:57:58PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>> For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a
>> wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup  
>> language:
>> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html
>
> [ looks ]
>
> Oh, it's a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor on the front.
>
> Yeah, we've got that.
>
>> We've been using MediaWiki as our office intranet over the years but
>> it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because
>> of the requirement that users learn wiki markup. For this reason
>> we'll be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year for Apple's Wiki
>> Server.
>>
>> The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I
>> hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia
>> projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop
>> many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally
>> to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is
>> "difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time-
>> consuming to learn.
>
> With all due respect to your users, bullshit.
>
> Number one, you don't actually *need* to use any markup at all.  
> Number
> two, the markup you might *want* to use is so trivial, that I have to
> say that anyone who can't be bothered to learn it -- it's just that:
> they can't be bothered.
>
> Screw 'em.
>
> If you're not willing to learn the tools, you're not entitled to the
> ease their use contributes to your life.  And good riddance.
>
> I'm elitest, sure, but that outlook is *not*, IMHO.
>
>> I have little doubt that one day using wiki markup only to edit
>> websites like Wikipedia will be seen as an anachronism, even more so
>> as other alternatives to MediaWiki (such as Apple's Wiki Server) come
>> online, but there's a few hurdles to overcome yet and they're not all
>> technical ones as far as I can work out.
>>
>> It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been made a
>> high priority for Wikimedia, considering the fact that it was founded
>> on the idea of broad participation. Although technical difficulties
>> are often put forward as the reason, the biggest obstacle, it has
>> often seemed to me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki
>> markup as a way of protecting their territory and minimising
>> participation by others. I've even had people argue that wiki markup
>> is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to
>> overcome before being allowed to edit Wikimedia projects. Somehow
>> this needs to be overcome if WYSIWYG is to gain traction and get a
>> higher priority it seems to me.
>
> Bullshit.
>
> There will need tobe markup in the internal storage format anyway; if
> you want WYSIWYG, you bolt it on around the outside.  That's the only
> design pattern that makes any sense at all.
>
> Given that, I see no reason to penalize those who *prefer* power by
> making the markup language inaccessible -- which I'd bet cash Apple  
> has
> done -- and if you want or need a WYG editor, put one on there.
>
> But don't dis MediaWiki because the native interface is ... the native
> interface.  That's just strawman.
>
>> Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,
>> particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor, and I wish you well.
>> However, if integrating an editor into the current environment is so
>> difficult maybe there needs to be a new approach, such as developing
>> new software/syntax with some type of WYSIWYG editor built in from
>> the start? Worth a discussion at least, I should imagine.
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Rebuilding MediaWiki from scratch?  That's crazy talk.
>
> If the problem is the weak definition of the markup language, then
> precess that around until you get it stable enough to WYG in front of.
>
> Anyone along the way for whom this isn't the right tool will no doubt
> find something else.  Darwin lives.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth                                                
> [hidden email]
> Designer                          
> Baylink                             RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates        The Things I  
> Think                        '87 e24
> St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1  
> 727 647 1274
>
> The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

The Cunctator
Now, now, no need for that.

There's a lot of competing thought about the best way to maximize
human-computer interaction.

MediaWiki is pretty far from the original wikiwiki design intent of Ward
Cunningham. Doesn't mean either is right or wrong.


On 8/10/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In your world the human should bend to the computer. My users think
> it should be the other way round.
>
> You're not elitist Jay, you're just a prick.
>
> Christiaan
>
> On 10 Aug 2006, at 4:28 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 12:57:58PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> >> For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a
> >> wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup
> >> language:
> >> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html
> >
> > [ looks ]
> >
> > Oh, it's a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor on the front.
> >
> > Yeah, we've got that.
> >
> >> We've been using MediaWiki as our office intranet over the years but
> >> it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because
> >> of the requirement that users learn wiki markup. For this reason
> >> we'll be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year for Apple's Wiki
> >> Server.
> >>
> >> The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I
> >> hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia
> >> projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop
> >> many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally
> >> to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is
> >> "difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time-
> >> consuming to learn.
> >
> > With all due respect to your users, bullshit.
> >
> > Number one, you don't actually *need* to use any markup at all.
> > Number
> > two, the markup you might *want* to use is so trivial, that I have to
> > say that anyone who can't be bothered to learn it -- it's just that:
> > they can't be bothered.
> >
> > Screw 'em.
> >
> > If you're not willing to learn the tools, you're not entitled to the
> > ease their use contributes to your life.  And good riddance.
> >
> > I'm elitest, sure, but that outlook is *not*, IMHO.
> >
> >> I have little doubt that one day using wiki markup only to edit
> >> websites like Wikipedia will be seen as an anachronism, even more so
> >> as other alternatives to MediaWiki (such as Apple's Wiki Server) come
> >> online, but there's a few hurdles to overcome yet and they're not all
> >> technical ones as far as I can work out.
> >>
> >> It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been made a
> >> high priority for Wikimedia, considering the fact that it was founded
> >> on the idea of broad participation. Although technical difficulties
> >> are often put forward as the reason, the biggest obstacle, it has
> >> often seemed to me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki
> >> markup as a way of protecting their territory and minimising
> >> participation by others. I've even had people argue that wiki markup
> >> is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to
> >> overcome before being allowed to edit Wikimedia projects. Somehow
> >> this needs to be overcome if WYSIWYG is to gain traction and get a
> >> higher priority it seems to me.
> >
> > Bullshit.
> >
> > There will need tobe markup in the internal storage format anyway; if
> > you want WYSIWYG, you bolt it on around the outside.  That's the only
> > design pattern that makes any sense at all.
> >
> > Given that, I see no reason to penalize those who *prefer* power by
> > making the markup language inaccessible -- which I'd bet cash Apple
> > has
> > done -- and if you want or need a WYG editor, put one on there.
> >
> > But don't dis MediaWiki because the native interface is ... the native
> > interface.  That's just strawman.
> >
> >> Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,
> >> particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor, and I wish you well.
> >> However, if integrating an editor into the current environment is so
> >> difficult maybe there needs to be a new approach, such as developing
> >> new software/syntax with some type of WYSIWYG editor built in from
> >> the start? Worth a discussion at least, I should imagine.
> >
> > I don't think so.
> >
> > Rebuilding MediaWiki from scratch?  That's crazy talk.
> >
> > If the problem is the weak definition of the markup language, then
> > precess that around until you get it stable enough to WYG in front of.
> >
> > Anyone along the way for whom this isn't the right tool will no doubt
> > find something else.  Darwin lives.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> > --
> > Jay R. Ashworth
> > [hidden email]
> > Designer
> > Baylink                             RFC 2100
> > Ashworth & Associates        The Things I
> > Think                        '87 e24
> > St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1
> > 727 647 1274
> >
> >       The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.
> > _______________________________________________
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> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Judson Dunn-2
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-4
On 8/10/06, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Do we? I was thinking about this. Even the wikiwyg we looked at a
> couple of weeks ago essentially forces you to edit wikitext, and
> separately shows it to you. Do we have anything that works like Word,
> for instance?
>
> I ask this not as a clueless user, or on behalf of people who are too
> lazy to learn syntax. But as someone who does a *lot* of editing in
> MediaWiki, and who finds the "spot the mistake, click edit, find the
> same spot in the code, change, save" cycle far too slow. Editing would
> be a hell of a lot more efficient if one could simply click on the
> place to edit, and start typing. I imagine the basic cycle looking
> like this:
>
> 1. Click on the text.
> 2. A surrounding patch of text (a sentence? a paragraph?) is "locked"
> (no one else can edit it) and highlighted, and somehow rendered
> "editable".
> 3. Edit, drag text around etc. If necessary, mark other bits of text
> as being "locked" as well so you can edit them.
> 4. Press a commit button.
>
> I don't know that this would work well for more complex syntax like
> tables, but even if it only worked for small, local changes (like typo
> fixing) it would be a major improvement.
>

That would be nice, and I would consider that a UI improvement, but
not really in the same direction as wysiwyg editing. Personally, I am
not convinced that wysiwyg editing is as simple a process as people
think. Sure it would be nice to let anyone edit as easily as they do
in Word, but Word doesn't have templates, and wikilinks, and wikilinks
with alternate text.

When you are designing the UI people really need to think about
specifics, sure having a bold button would be easy to make something
bold, but what would be the easiest way to fill in {{Taxobox}}. That
is a hard question, but I can guarantee you trying to mimic the
formatting toolbar in Word is not the answer.

When people start to edit a wiki there is some learning they have to
do, no matter how easy you make it. The set of skills people need to
edit a word document are not all the skills they need, even at a
conceptual level, to edit a wiki. They will have to learn new
concepts. Now, that's not to say that the system we have is perfect,
having to find the text once, then click edit and find it again is a
good example, and some of the obvious formatting things (bold etc)
could actually use standard UI, but there is a lot of stuff that is
honestly conceptually new.

Dealing with that is a difficult problem, but I'm not sure if the
wikiwyg project is being very useful in that direction.
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Ron Hall
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
Christiaan Briggs wrote:
Hey! What kinda' dialogue is this - certainly you can find better ways
to express yourself.
If not, then perhaps you might just want to "turn down the volume".

Human-Computer-Interaction/Computer-Human-Interaction both exist,
sometimes they overlap
sometimes that don't. The truth, or the real-world (as it were) lies
somewhere in-between the
poles of pure research.

In some cases one works better than others - by way of the absurd
consider the brakes on Fred Flintstone's car
and the vitech brakes on my Mazda. Which is better? depends on the
environment and the limits of existing, local
technology.

All that aside - there really was no reason to be rude.

r

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 04:42:43PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> In your world the human should bend to the computer. My users think  
> it should be the other way round.

Then your users are perfectly welcome to use something that does what
they need done, which is, to my understanding, the official position of
the Mediawiki developers.

> You're not elitist Jay, you're just a prick.

Nope, not at all.

You don't know me from Adam; you're neither entitled, nor informed
enough, to call me a prick.

An opinionated bastard of extraodrinary magnitude?  Yes.  But it seems
to me that "MediaWiki should gravitate in -- or be rewritten into --
something that happens to suit *my* user base's needs, whether that
would be suitable to the WMF -- which is how your comments read, to me
-- is *much* more presumptious than my comments.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                                                [hidden email]
Designer                          Baylink                             RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates        The Things I Think                        '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA      http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

        The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
On 10 Aug 2006, at 5:02 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:

> Then your users are perfectly welcome to use something that does  
> what they need done, which is, to my understanding, the official  
> position of the Mediawiki developers.

And, as I said in my initial email, they will. But that wasn't the  
point of my post. As I said: "The reason I'm posting this is simply  
to put forward the view that I hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant  
will be developed for Wikimedia projects in the near future, because  
I think the hurdles that stop many people from participating on our  
office intranet apply equally to Wikimedia projects."

In your haste to prove your self-image as an opinionated bastard of  
extraordinary magnitude you completely missed my point.

> You don't know me from Adam; you're neither entitled, nor informed  
> enough, to call me a prick.

Someone who says I and the people I work with are talking bullshit  
and should get screwed because they want computers to work for them  
instead of the other way around is entitled to the label of prick as  
far as I'm concerned. By all means, be opinionated but if you're  
going to use such language then get used to having it thrown back at  
you.

> An opinionated bastard of extraodrinary magnitude?  Yes.  But it  
> seems to me that "MediaWiki should gravitate in -- or be rewritten  
> into -- something that happens to suit *my* user base's needs,  
> whether that would be suitable to the WMF -- which is how your  
> comments read, to me -- is *much* more presumptious than my comments.

Then you need to read a little more slowly.

Christiaan
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