Baidupedia copyvio collections

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Dan Rosenthal
I've yet to see anyone stating that we should enforce any viewpoint "at any
cost".

-dan


On 6/12/08, Robert Stojnic <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
>
> >On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>[...] My
> >>personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> >>to steal from us.
> >>[...]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
> >stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
> >
> >
>
> I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> people on this mailing list ).
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

brian.mcneil-2
In reply to this post by Dan Rosenthal
This is a tired old canard.

Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.

When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
not taken it away from them.

For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
kool-aid.


Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dan Rosenthal
Sent: 12 June 2008 15:19
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Baidupedia copyvio collections

On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Titan Deng wrote:
> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
not free dissemination, its theft.

-Dan

--
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iPhone Application

symode09
In reply to this post by Robert Stojnic-2
Hey everyone!



I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone application developed. I think the best way would be
to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have a similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?

cheers

brown_cat


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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Waerth
In reply to this post by Robert Stojnic-2
Robert Stojnic wrote:

> Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
>
>  
>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>    
>>> [...] My
>>> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
>>> to steal from us.
>>> [...]
>>>    
>>>
>>>      
>> Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
>> stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
>>  
>>
>>    
>
> I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> people on this mailing list ).
>
> Robert
Please reread my mails about handling it the Asian way .....

Waerth
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Re: iPhone Application

Huib Laurens
In reply to this post by symode09
hello,

am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a mobilephone?

or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?

greatzz,
huib

2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:

> Hey everyone!
>
>
>
> I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
> application developed. I think the best way would be
> to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
> or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
> Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have a
> similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
>
> cheers
>
> brown_cat
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Dan Rosenthal
In reply to this post by brian.mcneil-2
I disagree. Under our licenses, we require attribution for content. If
someone else takes my content and uses it without attribution, they are
saying it is theirs. That is theft. They have taken my intellectual
property, and claimed it as their own. That's entirely different than the
RIAA line, which says "If you download copyrighted music without paying,
that's theft". There is a HUGE difference between sharing copyrighted
content inappropriately, and claiming ownership and authorship of that
content. The latter is 100% unacceptable; the former at least has moral
arguments against it. I certainly am not a drinker of the RIAA kool-aid, nor
am I trying to equate it to criminal acts like larceny and the like.  I am
trying to put it into perspective however; it's not something we should be
condoning or supporting. That's one of the benefits of having free content
-- to minimize the instances of copyright infringement. It's hard to
infringe on free content -- you have to actively try. So those who DO
actively go out of their way to take credit for what our contributors have
made, ought to be viewed in a stricter light precisely because of the
freedom of our content.

-Dan

On 6/12/08, Brian McNeil <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This is a tired old canard.
>
> Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
>
> When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> not taken it away from them.
>
> For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> kool-aid.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dan
> Rosenthal
> Sent: 12 June 2008 15:19
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Baidupedia copyvio collections
>
> On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Titan Deng wrote:
> > > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which
> were
> > > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
> >
> > What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
> >
> > Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> > Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> > people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> > the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> > parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> > and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
> >
> > Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> > give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> > can't name this source.
> >
> > But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> > second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> > the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
> >
> > Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
> license. If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge. Copyright
> infringement != free knowledge. It == theft. By enforcing that other
> websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under,
> we
> are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> assurances that their work will be protected and not abused. I know that I,
> for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I
> knew
> that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
> not free dissemination, its theft.
>
> -Dan
>
> --
> Dan Rosenthal
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Dan Rosenthal
In reply to this post by Waerth
Handling it "the asian way" may work for instances in asia. But what about
in the West, where "losing face" is not a relevant concept? We have to think
beyond this one instance to the general principle that applies. The actual
methods with which we use to address these situations can certainly vary
depending on where the other site is located and how much of our content
they are using. But it is silly, and perhaps discriminatory, for us to say
"Well, if it's an Asian site, we'll embarass them, but if they are not Asian
we'll simply leave them alone unless we want to sue them". It's more
effective for us to say "We won't tolerate this anywhere, and we will take
firm action against reusage of our content in a way that flagrantly violates
the GFDL. The precise type of action will vary depending on what the site
is, where it is located, etc., what they are using, how big they are etc."

-Dan


On 6/12/08, Waerth <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Robert Stojnic wrote:
> > Bryan Tong Minh wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Robert Stojnic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> [...] My
> >>> personal POV is that we steal from China far much more than they manage
> >>> to steal from us.
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Even though that is probably true, stealing from somebody because he
> >> stole from you does not exactly sound like a good idea.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I agree, the current situation is not exactly great, cooperation to
> > mutual benefit is far better, but enforcing the western-viewpoint at any
> > cost is by far the worst ( which is what seems to be pushed by some
> > people on this mailing list ).
> >
> > Robert
> Please reread my mails about handling it the Asian way .....
>
> Waerth
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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Re: iPhone Application

symode09
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and because of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the aims of Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as possible. We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a serious attempt at it.

browncat



> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>
> hello,
>
> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a mobilephone?
>
> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
>
> greatzz,
> huib
>
> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
> > Hey everyone!
> >
> >
> >
> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
> > application developed. I think the best way would be
> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have a
> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > brown_cat
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Henning Schlottmann
In reply to this post by Dan Rosenthal
Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
>> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
>> can't name this source.

> Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under our
> license.

As if I didn't know that ... but I still don't believe it is applicable.

> If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge.

Who cares? They distribute encyclopedic information into mainland China.
That's what counts. Not some nifty details about licenses and attribution.

> Copyright
> infringement != free knowledge. It == theft.

NACK - IP piracy is not theft, it's illegal copying. Frankly, it's a
shame when Wikipedians repeat the false analogies of the IP industry.

> By enforcing that other
> websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under, we
> are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> assurances that their work will be protected and not abused.

Yeah sure ... try that with mainland China. Would be nice if it worked,
but it's not that realistic for the time being. There "imitation" still
"is the sincerest form of flattery."

> I know that I,
> for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I knew
> that it would be taken by another person and used under their name. That's
> not free dissemination, its theft.

It's not theft - if it were, something would be taken from you, so
someone else would hold it and you would not. IP piracy is illegal
copying, because before, during and after you still hold your work -
just someone else has another copy of it without your consent. That's
illegal but it is not theft.

Ciao Henning


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Re: iPhone Application

Huib Laurens
In reply to this post by symode09
but can't the iphone just access wikipedia or other project's via wap
or gprs? all other phones can do that also.

greatzz
huib

2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:

> Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and because
> of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the aims of
> Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as possible.
> We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a serious
> attempt at it.
>
> browncat
>
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>>
>> hello,
>>
>> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a
>> mobilephone?
>>
>> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
>>
>> greatzz,
>> huib
>>
>> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
>> > Hey everyone!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
>> > application developed. I think the best way would be
>> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
>> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
>> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have
>> > a
>> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>> > brown_cat
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
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Re: iPhone Application

symode09
you can access the net from the iphone but you can also access ebay yet, they have developed an app. This is because, they know when you have apps specifically designed for their site instead of a browser, you can do far more, more efficiently and easier.

and like I was saying before, we have nothing to loose.

browncat


> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:12:15 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>
> but can't the iphone just access wikipedia or other project's via wap
> or gprs? all other phones can do that also.
>
> greatzz
> huib
>
> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
> > Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and because
> > of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the aims of
> > Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as possible.
> > We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a serious
> > attempt at it.
> >
> > browncat
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
> >>
> >> hello,
> >>
> >> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a
> >> mobilephone?
> >>
> >> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
> >>
> >> greatzz,
> >> huib
> >>
> >> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
> >> > Hey everyone!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
> >> > application developed. I think the best way would be
> >> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
> >> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
> >> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have
> >> > a
> >> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
> >> >
> >> > cheers
> >> >
> >> > brown_cat
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> >> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: iPhone Application

Huib Laurens
i get it. i think that en.wiki already have made a wiki for smartphone.

i already edit with my phone. i can upload images. i would say : a
application can't make it easy. because it is easy

huib

2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:

> you can access the net from the iphone but you can also access ebay yet,
> they have developed an app. This is because, they know when you have apps
> specifically designed for their site instead of a browser, you can do far
> more, more efficiently and easier.
>
> and like I was saying before, we have nothing to loose.
>
> browncat
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:12:15 +0200
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>>
>> but can't the iphone just access wikipedia or other project's via wap
>> or gprs? all other phones can do that also.
>>
>> greatzz
>> huib
>>
>> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
>> > Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and
>> > because
>> > of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the aims
>> > of
>> > Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as
>> > possible.
>> > We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a
>> > serious
>> > attempt at it.
>> >
>> > browncat
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
>> >> From: [hidden email]
>> >> To: [hidden email]
>> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>> >>
>> >> hello,
>> >>
>> >> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a
>> >> mobilephone?
>> >>
>> >> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
>> >>
>> >> greatzz,
>> >> huib
>> >>
>> >> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Hey everyone!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
>> >> > application developed. I think the best way would be
>> >> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
>> >> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
>> >> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would
>> >> > have
>> >> > a
>> >> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
>> >> >
>> >> > cheers
>> >> >
>> >> > brown_cat
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
>> >> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> >> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > foundation-l mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > Unsubscribe:
>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> foundation-l mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Never miss another e-mail with Hotmail on your mobile.
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Re: iPhone Application

pmartin-3
In reply to this post by symode09
Hello

we could help you.

We have a solution wich could put wikipedia articles on mobile phone :
http://wikiwix.mobi it s just a first step.

We could make it for any project of the fondation and all the language.

We could extract some information to put like this :
http://wikiwix.com/?timeline=true&lang=en


Cordialement
Martin Pascal
tel : 02 32 40 23 69, fax : 02 32 61 45 26
gsm : 06 13 89 77 32
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deni Symonds" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application


> you can access the net from the iphone but you can also access ebay yet,
> they have developed an app. This is because, they know when you have apps
> specifically designed for their site instead of a browser, you can do far
> more, more efficiently and easier.
>
> and like I was saying before, we have nothing to loose.
>
> browncat
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:12:15 +0200
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>>
>> but can't the iphone just access wikipedia or other project's via wap
>> or gprs? all other phones can do that also.
>>
>> greatzz
>> huib
>>
>> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
>> > Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and
>> > because
>> > of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the aims
>> > of
>> > Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as
>> > possible.
>> > We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a
>> > serious
>> > attempt at it.
>> >
>> > browncat
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
>> >> From: [hidden email]
>> >> To: [hidden email]
>> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>> >>
>> >> hello,
>> >>
>> >> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a
>> >> mobilephone?
>> >>
>> >> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
>> >>
>> >> greatzz,
>> >> huib
>> >>
>> >> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Hey everyone!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
>> >> > application developed. I think the best way would be
>> >> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a
>> >> > macbook
>> >> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
>> >> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would
>> >> > have
>> >> > a
>> >> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
>> >> >
>> >> > cheers
>> >> >
>> >> > brown_cat
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
>> >> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> >> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > foundation-l mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > Unsubscribe:
>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> foundation-l mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Never miss another e-mail with Hotmail on your mobile.
> http://www.livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=343869
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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Henning Schlottmann
2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]>:

> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.

There is a lot to be said for this approach. Until we can *ourselves*
distribute this content to Internet users in China, in effect, we're
over a barrel.

If we go to Baidu and demand "credit [Wikipedia authors] or take it
down", what do we do if they say "okay, we'll take it down"? We'd have
shot ourselves in the foot - there's a billion people who no longer
have access to our content, and this is really not something we want
to be doing.

And if they're smart, they'll see this. They'll see that all they need
to do is say "sorry, no", because we'll have to back down; even a
takedown could be enforced, we would be very unlikely to make it
happen.

I say, leave it be until we're in a position to realistically
negotiate with them.

--
- Andrew Gray
 [hidden email]

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by brian.mcneil-2
Brian McNeil wrote:
> Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
>
> When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> not taken it away from them.
>
> For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> kool-aid.
>  
I think that "theft" was an unfortunate choice of words. A different
word could be used without diminishing the importance of Baidu's
improprieties.

Ec

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Titan Deng
In reply to this post by Henning Schlottmann
2008/6/12 Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]>:

> Titan Deng wrote:
> > We Chinese Wikipedians are now collecting Baidupedia articles which were
> > copied from Chinese Wikipedia.
>
> What is all that copyright, lawyer, enforcement, loose face stuff about?
>
> Last time I checked, Wikipedia was about disseminating free knowledge.
> Unfortunately the projects are blocked by the Chinese government, so
> people of the peoples republic have no access to our content, not the
> the parts that are deemed dangerous by the government, not to the other
> parts. Now someone takes at least some of the uncontroversial content
> and makes it available by copying into Baidu.
>
No, it's not true. If you can read the list (the link I gave), those
articles are not controversial articles, not sensitive to the Chinese
government at all. Baidupedia has political censorship, and their staff
review and filter all materials which might be regarded as sensitive to
Chinese government.

>
> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> can't name this source.
>
The ban is not relative to their copyright violation. Wikipedia is not
prohibited to mention. The Great Fire Wall blocks the website with its url (
wikipedia.org).
At least, according to GFDL, they can still mention 5 main authors instead
of mentioning Wikipedia.


> But as our mission is to distribute our knowledge, I believe this is the
> second best way to distribute our articles, and the best available until
> the forces that are open up the Great Firewall.
>
Our mission is distributing free knowledge, but what Baidu does is on the
contrary way. The claim those articles "copyrighted" (as you can see the
bottom part of every page of those articles  with a little (C)2008 Baidu).

Regards,
Titan

>
> Ciao Henning [[user:h-stt]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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Re: iPhone Application

Dan Rosenthal
In reply to this post by pmartin-3
The big problem with editing Wikis on an iPhone is that when you are in the
edit screen, it is essentially impossible to scroll through a large block of
text (I'm not talking about the main page where you can just finger scroll
through it, but after you hit edit, and the text appears in your edit
window). The iPhone's typing interface does not support scrolling,
unfortunately. An iPhone store app, however, potentially gets around this
problem.

-Dan
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Martin Pascal <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello
>
> we could help you.
>
> We have a solution wich could put wikipedia articles on mobile phone :
> http://wikiwix.mobi it s just a first step.
>
> We could make it for any project of the fondation and all the language.
>
> We could extract some information to put like this :
> http://wikiwix.com/?timeline=true&lang=en
>
>
> Cordialement
> Martin Pascal
> tel : 02 32 40 23 69, fax : 02 32 61 45 26
> gsm : 06 13 89 77 32
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Deni Symonds" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 6:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
>
>
> > you can access the net from the iphone but you can also access ebay yet,
> > they have developed an app. This is because, they know when you have apps
> > specifically designed for their site instead of a browser, you can do far
> > more, more efficiently and easier.
> >
> > and like I was saying before, we have nothing to loose.
> >
> > browncat
> >
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:12:15 +0200
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
> >>
> >> but can't the iphone just access wikipedia or other project's via wap
> >> or gprs? all other phones can do that also.
> >>
> >> greatzz
> >> huib
> >>
> >> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
> >> > Well, because a vast majority of all web access on cell phones, and
> >> > because
> >> > of the massive market, I think we definately should.... one of the
> aims
> >> > of
> >> > Wikimedia is to get free educational media onto as many mediums as
> >> > possible.
> >> > We have nothing to loose and therefore I believe we should take a
> >> > serious
> >> > attempt at it.
> >> >
> >> > browncat
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:49:21 +0200
> >> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] iPhone Application
> >> >>
> >> >> hello,
> >> >>
> >> >> am i wrong but it is already possible to look at wikipedia with a
> >> >> mobilephone?
> >> >>
> >> >> or do we need a diferent application for the iphone?
> >> >>
> >> >> greatzz,
> >> >> huib
> >> >>
> >> >> 2008/6/12, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]>:
> >> >> > Hey everyone!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone
> >> >> > application developed. I think the best way would be
> >> >> > to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a
> >> >> > macbook
> >> >> > or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
> >> >> > Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > cheers
> >> >> >
> >> >> > brown_cat
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> >> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> >> >> >
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > foundation-l mailing list
> >> >> > [hidden email]
> >> >> > Unsubscribe:
> >> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> >> [hidden email]
> >> >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> > Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
> >> >
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Never miss another e-mail with Hotmail on your mobile.
> > http://www.livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=343869
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
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Re: iPhone Application

Casey Brown-3
In reply to this post by symode09
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Deni Symonds <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey everyone!
>
>
>
> I was just wondering how you think we could try and get an iPhone application developed. I think the best way would be
> to hold a competition and, then try and get apple to donate a macbook
> or iPod touch or something to the winner. Apple has incorporated
> Wikipedia's incorporation into OSX in the past and I think it would have a similar position with the iPhone. What do you think?
>
> cheers
>
> brown_cat
>
>

See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mobile_browser_testing> and I think
Wikitech-l (CC'ed) would probably be more help than Foundation-l in
this.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
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this address will probably get lost.

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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Titan Deng
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
In Chinese language, we use "剽竊" (Piao Qie) to describe the action of piracy
without attribution.
I just look up some online dictionary. 剽 could be translated as to steal or
to rob, and 竊 means the action of theft.

For a man educated under the Chinese culture, to call the action of
Baidupedia as theft is not violating the common sense.

Regards,
Titan

2008/6/13 Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]>:

> Brian McNeil wrote:
> > Copyright infringement is *NOT* theft.
> >
> > When you infringe someone's copyright you have duplicated what they have,
> > not taken it away from them.
> >
> > For this very reason, the law views the two offences differently. If you
> > equate copyright infringement with theft, you've been drinking the RIAA
> > kool-aid.
> >
> I think that "theft" was an unfortunate choice of words. A different
> word could be used without diminishing the importance of Baidu's
> improprieties.
>
> Ec
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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Re: Baidupedia copyvio collections

Dan Rosenthal
In reply to this post by Henning Schlottmann
This may be a cultural difference between you and I then. In the U.S.,
intellectual property is property. It can be owned, and ownership rights
asserted, and the fact that when others infringe upon it you are not missing
it, does not mean that a theft has not occured. Consider a design for a new
chemical that I am working on. If you take my notes and make the chemical
yourself, I technically have not lost anything that I already owned. Yet, it
is still theft because you are depriving me of the right to profit from my
creation, the right to license it as I choose, the right to maintain and
assert my ownership, etc. All those things are rights that I have, and it is
the theft of the rights that is the problem, not the copying of the content.

I don't know if you have access to OTRS, but one of the common complaints
that I see there, and one of the common questions I see from people
unfamiliar with Wikipedia is "Why would you do all this for free?" or "How
come other people can use my content". We satisfy those people by reassuring
them that their authorship will be adequately protected by the GFDL, by
ensuring that under the terms of the license, they will be credited as the
author, and nobody can steal their authorship and ownership of the work by
claiming it as their own.

But that's exactly what Baidupedia has done. The assurances to every single
person who has ever contributed to a WMF project are undermined as long as
Baidupedia uses our content while claiming it as their own, under copyright.
It is not copying. Copying would be merely them reusing the content. It's
their claim that THEY were the authors, that it belongs to them, that it is
something they could potentially sue you over. That is the theft; the theft
of the authorship and ownership rights of the Wikipedian who wrote the
content. It is fundamentally unacceptable that we support that.

Nobody is saying they should have to take it down. We don't want them to do
that, as long as we don't have an in-route to China. They need only come
into compliance with the terms of the license. As I said before, the needs
of every contributor everywhere else in the world come first.

You keep repeating that "it works different in mainlaind china". That
doesn't matter. Every country works differently somehow from every other
country. Our duty is not to China alone: it is to the world, a world that
overwhelmingly supports that authors should have certain rights; a world
that even China itself supports the enforcement of these rights. Baidupedia
is not China. It is a company that is hurting our contributors. We should be
looking for ways to heal them and fix the problem, not for ways to excuse
their poor behavior.

-Dan
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> > On 6/12/08, Henning Schlottmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >> Of course it would be nice if they would acknowledge the license and
> >> give proper attribution. But they can't - Wikipedia is banned and they
> >> can't name this source.
>
> > Free knowledge does not mean that the information itself is unrestricted,
> > nor does it mean that the authors who make information free waive all of
> > their rights. We fundamentally require attribution to our authors under
> our
> > license.
>
> As if I didn't know that ... but I still don't believe it is applicable.
>
> > If Baidupedia is not respecting that, and are not in
> > compliance with the other terms of the GFDL, then it is very difficult to
> > say that they are working for the freedom of knowledge.
>
> Who cares? They distribute encyclopedic information into mainland China.
> That's what counts. Not some nifty details about licenses and attribution.
>
> > Copyright
> > infringement != free knowledge. It == theft.
>
> NACK - IP piracy is not theft, it's illegal copying. Frankly, it's a
> shame when Wikipedians repeat the false analogies of the IP industry.
>
> > By enforcing that other
> > websites respect the terms of the licenses our works are published under,
> we
> > are actually furthering free knowledge by giving our contributors some
> > assurances that their work will be protected and not abused.
>
> Yeah sure ... try that with mainland China. Would be nice if it worked,
> but it's not that realistic for the time being. There "imitation" still
> "is the sincerest form of flattery."
>
> > I know that I,
> > for one, would have second thoughts about some of my contributions if I
> knew
> > that it would be taken by another person and used under their name.
> That's
> > not free dissemination, its theft.
>
> It's not theft - if it were, something would be taken from you, so
> someone else would hold it and you would not. IP piracy is illegal
> copying, because before, during and after you still hold your work -
> just someone else has another copy of it without your consent. That's
> illegal but it is not theft.
>
> Ciao Henning
>
>
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--
Dan Rosenthal
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