Barbara Bauer case dismissed

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Barbara Bauer case dismissed

David Gerard-2
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/08/wikipedia-wins-dismissal-baseless-defamation-claim

Section 230 immunity holds.


- d.

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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Luna-4
I could be mistaken, but I believe this is the first s230 case I'm aware of
which specifically references Wikipedia?
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Sam Blacketer
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Luna <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I could be mistaken, but I believe this is the first s230 case I'm aware of
> which specifically references Wikipedia?


I was wondering the same thing. Unlike Fuzzy Zoeller where individual
editors were sued, this seems to be the first time a case against the WMF
has come to trial, and therefore the first time the application of s. 230 to
Wikipedia has been tested in court.

--
Sam Blacketer
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

David Gerard-2
2008/8/13 Sam Blacketer <[hidden email]>:
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Luna <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I could be mistaken, but I believe this is the first s230 case I'm aware of
>> which specifically references Wikipedia?

> I was wondering the same thing. Unlike Fuzzy Zoeller where individual
> editors were sued, this seems to be the first time a case against the WMF
> has come to trial, and therefore the first time the application of s. 230 to
> Wikipedia has been tested in court.


I just asked Mike Godwin, this is the first s230 case involving
Wikpedia. Fuzzy Zoeller didn't even try to sue Wikipedia, he went
straight to the person he believed was defaming him (or the business
that had the IP).


- d.

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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Joe Szilagyi
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/08/wikipedia-wins-dismissal-baseless-defamation-claim
>
> Section 230 immunity holds.
>


And since she's now even more notable than ever due to the lawsuit, does
this mean [[Barbara Bauer]] can be recreated?

- Joe
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
 
In a message dated 8/13/2008 2:49:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

And  since she's now even more notable than ever due to the lawsuit, does
this  mean [[Barbara Bauer]] can be recreated?

-  Joe>>


---------------------
 
Help me start it.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Send me the original article on Bauer and I'll post it.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:38 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Send me the original article on Bauer and I'll post it.
>
> Will Johnson
>

By reposting the article under these circumstances, you would be asserting
that (1) you are confident there is no BLP-violating material in the version
of the article you chose to post, and (2) you believe that there has been a
significant change of circumstances (which should be reflected in the
article content) since the prior, extensive AfD/DRV discussion such that the
decision to delete reached at that time is no longer applicable.  Unless (1)
is clearly true, you should not post this or any similar deleted BLP article
(see generally, [[RfAr/Badlydrawnjeff]]; [[RfAr/Footnoted quotes]];
[[WP:BLP]]).  Unless (2) is clearly true, the appropriate forum to revisit
this issue, if you truly believe it is necessary, would be DRV rather than
article creation.

Although we have not adopted a "BLP opt-out policy," I do not understand why
a user would consider it a significant priority to re-create an article
containing predominently negative coverage about an, at best,
highly-borderline-notable individual who has expressed extreme resentment
regarding the existence of such article.

Newyorkbrad

P.S.  Incidentally, however, I'd like you to go back to the Hornbeck/Ownby
deletion discussion and re-read my lengthy comments there.  I gave some of
your observations on BLP, but only some, more credit than you probably
remember that I did.
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Since the article space is full-protected, someone will have to lift that  in
order to start the Barbara Bauer article once more.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

geni
In reply to this post by Joe Szilagyi
2008/8/13 Joe Szilagyi <[hidden email]>:
> And since she's now even more notable than ever due to the lawsuit, does
> this mean [[Barbara Bauer]] can be recreated?


Nothing really to say about her. She's a literary agent who some of
the Si-Fi community don't like very much. Trying to take wikimedia to
court doesn't make you notable. Various people have tried to take
various online services to court and run into sec230. I don't think we
have articles on most of them.


--
geni

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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
 
In a message dated 8/13/2008 3:49:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Although  we have not adopted a "BLP opt-out policy," I do not understand why
a user  would consider it a significant priority to re-create an article
containing  predominently negative coverage about an, at  best,
highly-borderline-notable individual who has expressed extreme  resentment
regarding the existence of such  article.>>


------------------------------------------
I didn't say it was a "significant priority" of mine.
However two points, whether or not its "predominently negative", and  whether
or not she has "expressed extreme resentment" should have no impact on  our
mission, in my opinion.
 
If someone is notable, then we should have an article.  And where the  chips
fall is that person's own fault, not ours.  As long as we present the  sources
evenly and balanced, if those sources universally denigate the person,  than
evidently that's what those sources do.  It's our job to represent  them, not
to censor them.
 
Will



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
 
In a message dated 8/13/2008 3:49:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

I'd like  you to go back to the Hornbeck/Ownby
deletion discussion and re-read my  lengthy comments there.>>


--------------------------------------
Just as an example.  I might be "notable" if you simply count the  number of
times and places where you can find me mouthing off about something  :)
 
But as far as I know, one hundred and twenty five newspapers across the  
country and in France, England, Canada and Guam didn't carry stories about  me.  I
wasn't on Oprah, I didn't have a foundation named for me, and I  didn't write
a book about myself.
 
I'm sure you can see there's quite a bit of difference in the casual  ability
to "find out" about someone like You or I by pouring over public  records,
and the determined effort of those people like Barbara Bauer,  Matt Sanchez,
Shawn Hornbeck to make their name stand out in  bright lights.
 
If you check the Shawn Hornbeck Foundation page you will find, that they  are
still active, at least as of a month ago.  Still visiting various  schools or
what-have-you under their own name.  Now any casual reader might  say....
Well... Who IS Shawn Hornbeck.
 
We should be answering that question, instead of turning out the  lights.
That's my position.  It applies to all questions of that sort, even if  the
subject hates the result.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
2008/8/13 Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]>:

> Although we have not adopted a "BLP opt-out policy," I do not understand why
> a user would consider it a significant priority to re-create an article
> containing predominently negative coverage about an, at best,
> highly-borderline-notable individual who has expressed extreme resentment
> regarding the existence of such article.

I am reminded of a conversation I believe every doctor has now and again.

"Why do you keep poking at that?"
"It hurts."
"But it'll keep on hurting."
"Yes, that's why I keep poking it."


--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Joe Szilagyi
In reply to this post by geni
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:52 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2008/8/13 Joe Szilagyi <[hidden email]>:
> > And since she's now even more notable than ever due to the lawsuit, does
> > this mean [[Barbara Bauer]] can be recreated?
>
>
> Nothing really to say about her. She's a literary agent who some of
> the Si-Fi community don't like very much. Trying to take wikimedia to
> court doesn't make you notable. Various people have tried to take
> various online services to court and run into sec230. I don't think we
> have articles on most of them.


Oh, I know. I think she might maybe--maybe--meet N standards.

To Wil, I'm sure not going to work an article of someone that may run
litigation against editors, theoretically.

Is there any or was there any actual WMF restriction on her page if someone
took it to DRV though?



- Joe
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:03 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 8/13/2008 3:49:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> I'd like  you to go back to the Hornbeck/Ownby
> deletion discussion and re-read my  lengthy comments there.>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------
> Just as an example.  I might be "notable" if you simply count the  number
> of
> times and places where you can find me mouthing off about something  :)
>
> But as far as I know, one hundred and twenty five newspapers across the
> country and in France, England, Canada and Guam didn't carry stories about
>  me.  I
> wasn't on Oprah, I didn't have a foundation named for me, and I  didn't
> write
> a book about myself.
>
> I'm sure you can see there's quite a bit of difference in the casual
>  ability
> to "find out" about someone like You or I by pouring over public  records,
> and the determined effort of those people like Barbara Bauer,  Matt
> Sanchez,
> Shawn Hornbeck to make their name stand out in  bright lights.
>
> If you check the Shawn Hornbeck Foundation page you will find, that they
>  are
> still active, at least as of a month ago.  Still visiting various  schools
> or
> what-have-you under their own name.  Now any casual reader might  say....
> Well... Who IS Shawn Hornbeck.
>
> We should be answering that question, instead of turning out the  lights.
> That's my position.  It applies to all questions of that sort, even if  the
> subject hates the result.
>
> Will Johnson


The Hornbeck/Ownby deletion discussion (disclosure: I was the deleting
administrator) included one of the most comprehensive deletion debates
addressing these issues that I have seen.  Rather than reiterate all the
points that I and others made in the extensive dialog there (I have a
particularly thorough, which is a euphemism for overlong, set of comments
about halfway down the discussion), I will refer those interested to the DRV
archive for May 28, 2007.  My recollection is that you made some valid
points and I acknowledged them as such, but then proceeded to weaken your
better points by failing to acknowledge that the counterarguments had any
validity at all, while in the process calling me various names.

Newyorkbrad
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
 
In a message dated 8/13/2008 4:17:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

My  recollection is that you made some valid
points and I acknowledged them as  such, but then proceeded to weaken your
better points by failing to  acknowledge that the counterarguments had any
validity at all, while in the  process calling me various names.>>


--------------
{{fact}} ?
 
It's not like me to "call names".  But sometimes my dosage is  off.
 
Will Johnson



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

WJhonson
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
In a message dated 8/13/2008 4:17:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

My  recollection is that you made some valid
points and I acknowledged them as  such, but then proceeded to weaken your
better points by failing to  acknowledge that the counterarguments had any
validity at all, while in the  process calling me various names.>>
------------------
 
I'll fulfill my own {{fact}} request here
 
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_May#28_May_20
07_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_May#28_May_2007)
 
Will Johnson

 



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Re: Barbara Bauer case dismissed

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by Andrew Gray
On 8/13/08, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Why do you keep poking at that?"
> "It hurts."
> "But it'll keep on hurting."
> "Yes, that's why I keep poking it."

I remember it a bit differently:
> "When I press my finger right here, it hurts."
> "Does it hurt anywhere else?"
> "Yes, up here it also hurts, and over here, and down here."
> "Ah... your finger's broken."

—C.W.

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