Book referencing proposal

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Book referencing proposal

Adam Wight-4
The German Technical Wishes team is planning to implement a feature we're
calling "book referencing", which supports one level of nested references.
This makes it possible to reference the same book several times in an
article, pointing to various pages, without repeating the full citation.

A more complete description of the feature and a screenshot is available
below, please feel free to comment in Phabricator or on this thread.
    https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T234030

There has already been some community discussion, but since we're proposing
a small change to wikitext (the <ref> tag will accept a new attribute), I
thought it would be appropriate to wait for a round of technical feedback
before we begin coding.

Regards,
Adam

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Adam Wight - Developer - Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. - https://wikimedia.de
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Re: Book referencing proposal

Ryan Kaldari-2
Sounds like a great idea. It's sad that dealing with references on
Wikipedia is so complicated and requires knowing at least a dozen templates
and things like hash linking if you want to do it right (or edit a featured
article without breaking the references). Any efforts to simplify this with
Wikitext are welcome. While we're at it, can we add a separate <note> tag,
so that we can add footnotes with their own references (rather than having
to resort to templates)? See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T7265
(originally
requested in 2006!).

On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 9:29 AM Adam Wight <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The German Technical Wishes team is planning to implement a feature we're
> calling "book referencing", which supports one level of nested references.
> This makes it possible to reference the same book several times in an
> article, pointing to various pages, without repeating the full citation.
>
> A more complete description of the feature and a screenshot is available
> below, please feel free to comment in Phabricator or on this thread.
>     https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T234030
>
> There has already been some community discussion, but since we're proposing
> a small change to wikitext (the <ref> tag will accept a new attribute), I
> thought it would be appropriate to wait for a round of technical feedback
> before we begin coding.
>
> Regards,
> Adam
>
> --
> Adam Wight - Developer - Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. - https://wikimedia.de
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Book referencing proposal

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 11:56 AM Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> While we're at it, can we add a separate <note> tag,
> so that we can add footnotes with their own references (rather than having
> to resort to templates)? See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T7265
> (originally
> requested in 2006!).
>

The bug you linked there was correctly marked as a duplicate of T8271. You
seem to have gotten it confused with T3310
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T3310>, which is a separate issue with
the parser in general.

Also there's no actual need for templates for the current workaround, you
can use {{#tag:ref}} directly to nest them.

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Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Book referencing proposal

Ryan Kaldari-2
Thanks for the feedback, Brad. To clarify, I know you can use {{#tag:ref}}
instead of <ref> as a workaround, but that's a terrible solution and
undocumented <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite> to boot. T3310
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T3310> (allowing nested tags) has been
batted around for years (as the bug number attests) but doesn't seem to
have any traction (although no one seems willing to decline it either). The
bug I linked to, T7265 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T7265>, seems
like a relatively simple, straightforward solution to a common use case
that still doesn't have a real solution: creating footnotes that have
references. The fact that this solution has been rejected in favor of more
complicated solutions that either will never happen (T3310
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T3310>) or don't actually solve the
problem (T8271 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T8271>) is disappointing,
IMO.

On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 12:17 PM Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 11:56 AM Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > While we're at it, can we add a separate <note> tag,
> > so that we can add footnotes with their own references (rather than
> having
> > to resort to templates)? See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T7265
> > (originally
> > requested in 2006!).
> >
>
> The bug you linked there was correctly marked as a duplicate of T8271. You
> seem to have gotten it confused with T3310
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T3310>, which is a separate issue with
> the parser in general.
>
> Also there's no actual need for templates for the current workaround, you
> can use {{#tag:ref}} directly to nest them.
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Book referencing proposal

Adam Wight-4
On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 5:05 PM Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The bug I linked to, T7265 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T7265>,
> seems
> like a relatively simple, straightforward solution to a common use case
> that still doesn't have a real solution: creating footnotes that have
> references.


Hi Ryan, thanks for bringing up this request.  I see that the <note> tag
(T7265)
discussion goes back even further than the task, for example on the
footnotes talk
page [1], as early as 2005 [2].  Un-merging the task was a good call, maybe
the
next step would be to promote it during the next community wishlist survey,
or elaborate enough that it would make a good mentorship project.

There might be some beneficial overlap from improvements to be made to the
marker number sequence logic?  We noticed that the VisualEditor module [3]
and
backend [4] each do their own numbering and neither code is open to
extension.

-Adam

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Footnotes
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(footnotes)/Archive_1
[3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/mediawiki/extensions/Cite/+/531900/
[4] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/mediawiki/extensions/Cite/+/530399/
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