Boycott in ace@wiki

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Boycott in ace@wiki

Manuelt15 Wiki
Hi all,

Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
their Main page.

--Manuelt15
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Domas Mituzas
Hi!

> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia

Thats ACE!

Domas

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Ole Palnatoke Andersen
In reply to this post by Manuelt15 Wiki
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.

The template seems to be used by four of their editors - all four in
the top-ten: http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Emijrp/List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits

-Palnatoke

--
http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Manuelt15 Wiki
On 16 July 2010 13:17, Manuelt15 Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.


Is there some way this isn't a blatant repudiation of NPOV?


- d.

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Nathan Awrich
>David wrote: Is there some way this isn't a blatant repudiation of NPOV?

According to an administrator on his talkpage, the site bans anything
that violates Islamic law. I suspect the Acehnese Wikipedia isn't the
only project with this rule. It would be difficult to obey it without
violating NPOV at some point.

Nathan

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Manuelt15 Wiki
Manuelt15 Wiki, 16/07/2010 14:17:
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.

«boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from competent ulama». That's ok,
we have also Cathopedia. So: bye, bye, bring your POV elsewhere.

Nemo

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Oliver Keyes-3
Simples, then. If a project refuses to enforce NPOV and "bans" itself, we
remove it.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Manuelt15 Wiki, 16/07/2010 14:17:
> > Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> > have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> > their Main page.
>
> «boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from competent ulama». That's ok,
> we have also Cathopedia. So: bye, bye, bring your POV elsewhere.
>
> Nemo
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Manuelt15 Wiki
Hoi,
The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
are to do.

The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
Thanks,
        GerardM

On 16 July 2010 14:17, Manuelt15 Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> their Main page.
>
> --Manuelt15
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Chad
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hoi,
> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
>
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results.

+1

-Chad

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Marc Riddell

> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hoi,
>> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
>> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
>> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
>> are to do.
>>
>> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
>> results.
>
Yes! Talk WITH not TO. That's what collaboration is all about.

Marc Riddell


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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Excirial
In reply to this post by Manuelt15 Wiki
I know that every project's allowed to create its own guidelines and
policies, but this seems to go against the freedom of information principle
that Wikipedia stands for. I could accept this "No images" rule if it were
present on a Wiki where the bulk of the editors are legally restricted from
making such edits (Though it wouldn't be illegal per se, as the servers
aren't located in the country in question), but i am a bit baffled that they
feel the need to complain about the English Wiki, rather then worrying about
their own Wiki  instead. Equally i am non to fond of sysops who so blatantly
advance their own point of view, as this signals that the sysop cannot
handle conflicts in a neutral and impartial sense.

I agree that a dialog needs to be started with this Wiki, in order to
discuss this issue. It is probably best to do so quickly, before an ulama
indeed decides to declare this a fatw -. In that case we would be discussing
under a religious pretext, which is rarely the best way to fix issues such
as these.

~Excirial



On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> their Main page.
>
> --Manuelt15
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Oliver Keyes-3
Agreed. I don't particularly agree with Gerard's point that " It is similar
as if I were to say to the English language community
that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies." - in that
situation, yes, I'd expect en-wiki to change. If en-wiki was to leave its
collective brain home one day and get rid of the BLP policy, would we shrug
our shoulders and go "well, yes, it's a board-sanctioned policy, but they
can make their own decisions"? NPOV isn't just a board-sanctioned policy -
it's one of the fundamental principles and pillars the wiki is built on.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Excirial <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know that every project's allowed to create its own guidelines and
> policies, but this seems to go against the freedom of information principle
> that Wikipedia stands for. I could accept this "No images" rule if it were
> present on a Wiki where the bulk of the editors are legally restricted from
> making such edits (Though it wouldn't be illegal per se, as the servers
> aren't located in the country in question), but i am a bit baffled that
> they
> feel the need to complain about the English Wiki, rather then worrying
> about
> their own Wiki  instead. Equally i am non to fond of sysops who so
> blatantly
> advance their own point of view, as this signals that the sysop cannot
> handle conflicts in a neutral and impartial sense.
>
> I agree that a dialog needs to be started with this Wiki, in order to
> discuss this issue. It is probably best to do so quickly, before an ulama
> indeed decides to declare this a fatw -. In that case we would be
> discussing
> under a religious pretext, which is rarely the best way to fix issues such
> as these.
>
> ~Excirial
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> > <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> > have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> > in
> > their Main page.
> >
> > --Manuelt15
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Muhammad Yahia
In reply to this post by Excirial
> Acehnese Wikipedia is ready to boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from
> competent ulama.


In addition to trying to have a dialog with them and explain NPOV and the
rest of the pillars, I think someone should explain that the money that made
it possible for them to post such a notice actually comes from Wikipedia and
its volunteers...

--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.


All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.

However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
problematic.

And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.

Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?


- d.

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Andre Engels
In reply to this post by Muhammad Yahia
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Muhammad Yahia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Acehnese Wikipedia is ready to boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from
>> competent ulama.
>
>
> In addition to trying to have a dialog with them and explain NPOV and the
> rest of the pillars, I think someone should explain that the money that made
> it possible for them to post such a notice actually comes from Wikipedia and
> its volunteers...

Wouldn't it be better to explain to them that they are part of
Wikipedia, so they cannot boycott Wikipedia without boycotting
themselves? Although of course if they stick to their point, they have
the right to fork.


--
André Engels, [hidden email]

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Hoi,
First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.

It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is to
be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed, fork
the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language. They
can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
from editing it.

As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal attack.
I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues. Such
a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we have
to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them
> about
> > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what
> they
> > are to do.
> > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> community
> > that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
>
>
> All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
>
> However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> problematic.
>
> And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
>
> Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Oliver Keyes-3
No, you seem to be misunderstanding. Let me make a clear that me questioning
you on your beliefs and opinions in a respectful and neutral manner is not
in any sense a personal attack. Also note that I specifically said I agree,
we need to have conversations. I am not using any NPOV violations for "knee
jerk reactions [and] refusing to converse about such issues". What I was
pointing out is that to undermine the "action should be undertaken"
argument, you used the example of en-wiki violating board-set policies,
implying that en-wiki would somehow be exempt from any attempt to force it
on the issue. That is categorically and obviously wrong.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hoi,
> First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
> There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
> Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
> with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
> their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.
>
> It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is
> to
> be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
> have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed, fork
> the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language. They
> can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
> from editing it.
>
> As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
> beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal
> attack.
> I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
> policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
> reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues. Such
> a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we have
> to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them
> > about
> > > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what
> > they
> > > are to do.
> > > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> > > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> > community
> > > that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> > > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
> >
> >
> > All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
> >
> > However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> > noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> > problematic.
> >
> > And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> > ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
> >
> > Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
I reacted in my previous mail to David Gerard.

To me it is not obvious nor categorical that board-set policies will
necessarily be welcomed or accepted. I assume that new policies will be
formulated that will not have the power of tradition behind them. Given that
our community is rather traditionalist nowadays I expect an outcry whatever
such a policy consists off.
Thanks,
      GerardM


On 16 July 2010 17:24, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No, you seem to be misunderstanding. Let me make a clear that me
> questioning
> you on your beliefs and opinions in a respectful and neutral manner is not
> in any sense a personal attack. Also note that I specifically said I agree,
> we need to have conversations. I am not using any NPOV violations for "knee
> jerk reactions [and] refusing to converse about such issues". What I was
> pointing out is that to undermine the "action should be undertaken"
> argument, you used the example of en-wiki violating board-set policies,
> implying that en-wiki would somehow be exempt from any attempt to force it
> on the issue. That is categorically and obviously wrong.
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
> > There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
> > Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
> > with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
> > their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.
> >
> > It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is
> > to
> > be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
> > have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed,
> fork
> > the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language.
> They
> > can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
> > from editing it.
> >
> > As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
> > beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal
> > attack.
> > I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
> > policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
> > reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues.
> Such
> > a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we
> have
> > to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > > > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with
> them
> > > about
> > > > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about
> what
> > > they
> > > > are to do.
> > > > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to
> positive
> > > > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> > > community
> > > > that they have to change their way because their community consensus
> is
> > > > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
> > >
> > >
> > > All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
> > >
> > > However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> > > noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> > > problematic.
> > >
> > > And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> > > ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
> > >
> > > Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Austin Hair
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
>
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.

I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.

We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
that are, at best, pretty darn rude.  I really don't want to have to
moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
outright Muslim-bashing.

Austin

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki

Nathan Awrich
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Austin Hair <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
>
> We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> that are, at best, pretty darn rude.  I really don't want to have to
> moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> outright Muslim-bashing.
>
> Austin
>


Have a little faith. I don't think anything like outright
Muslim-bashing has ever happened on this list by regular participants.
Suggestions of closing the Aceh Wikipedia are obviously premature and
not helpful; discussing whether the rule violates NPOV, and alerting
others to facts about the situation, seems fine. It looks like the
administrators involved on ace.wp speak English and other languages,
anyone inclined to do so should feel welcome to approach them.

It's worth noting the template does not currently appear on the Main
Page, and there is something of a discussion about it here:
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marit_Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Hercule#Wikipedia_and_Islam

Nathan

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