Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

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Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Info Control
Was this an official OFFICE action?

Everyone seems to be up in arms over it--if not OFFICE, do admins have the
authority to overrule Jimbo?  It seems like he does not have any wide
support in this.

Has that ever happened before? What was the outcome?
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Jeff Raymond

Info Control wrote:
> Was this an official OFFICE action?
>
> Everyone seems to be up in arms over it--if not OFFICE, do admins have the
> authority to overrule Jimbo?  It seems like he does not have any wide
> support in this.
>
> Has that ever happened before? What was the outcome?

Rock and a hard place - Jimbo did what should have been done ages ago,
(unblocking Brandt) but not in direct contradiction to the community's
desires (keeping him blocked).

-Jeff

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Info Control
On 19/04/07, Info Control <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Was this an official OFFICE action?
> Everyone seems to be up in arms over it--if not OFFICE, do admins have the
> authority to overrule Jimbo?  It seems like he does not have any wide
> support in this.
> Has that ever happened before? What was the outcome?


He has unblocked and asked people not to block again without an
immediate need, as far as I understand it.


- d.

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Info Control
On 4/19/07, Info Control <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Everyone seems to be up in arms over it

Is that so? It seems like a sensible thing to try to deescalate past
conflicts using unblocks. We should be taking positive first steps
more frequently, rather than expecting the other side to bow to some
list of demands for apologies or pledges for better behavior. It is a
gesture of our own good faith and our willingness to mend fences.

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ForgiveAndForget

Jimmy has given three reasons:
* he asked nicely
* we are talking about a productive way forward in the future
* it has been more than a year

These seem like good reasons to me, and I trust his judgment in this
matter. I think we should all be willing to try out such experiments
more frequently, rather than dividing our world into friends and
enemies.

Nobody has, to my knowledge, suggested that Daniel be given control
over the biography about him. He can now act within the norms of the
community, or violate them. Let him make this decision, and let the
community react accordingly.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

"An old, rigid civilization is reluctantly dying. Something new, open,
free and exciting is waking up." -- Ming the Mechanic

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Info Control
On 4/19/07, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 4/19/07, Info Control <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Everyone seems to be up in arms over it
>
> Is that so?


Yes, it is, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard#Unblocking_of_Daniel_Brandt

Just saying. A large consensus of admins community banned him here 72 hours
ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard&oldid=122638406#Daniel_Brandt

Thats why I asked, just curious if Jimbo is deeming to override a dozen or
more admins there or if this was official OFFICE work.
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Info Control
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On 4/19/07, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Jimmy has given three reasons:
> * he asked nicely
> * we are talking about a productive way forward in the future
> * it has been more than a year
>
> These seem like good reasons to me, and I trust his judgment in this
> matter. I think we should all be willing to try out such experiments
> more frequently, rather than dividing our world into friends and
> enemies.



Also, I'm inclined to agree with you, but my questions are still sort of out
there... can the community overrule Jimbo, or is Jimbo pulling an OFFICE to
overrule previous decisions by multiple admins here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard&oldid=122638406#Daniel_Brandt

It's really more a question of what is Jimbo's authority in this matter
relative to the decisions of other admins.
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Tony Sidaway
On 4/19/07, Info Control <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It's really more a question of what is Jimbo's authority in this matter
> relative to the decisions of other admins.

Well, Jimbo was able to do this because he has been able to give good
reasons, and a lot of editors trust his judgement enough to give him
the benefit of the doubt.

To say that I'm not a fan of Daniel Brandt would be an understatement.
 However as long as he isn't disrupting Wikipedia there is no reason
to re-assert the block.

A purported "community ban" has been asserted by some editors, but
community bans only operate insofar as no administrator is prepared to
unblock, after contemplating the matter, the banned editor.  Jimbo has
been in discussion with Daniel Brandt and several other administrators
have co-operated on the technical side of unblocking Brandt, which
turned out to be quite difficult, so no community ban applies at this
time.

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Info Control
"Erik Moeller" wrote

> I think we should all be willing to try out such experiments
> more frequently, rather than dividing our world into friends and
> enemies.

Magnanimity is a good card to play against malice, when in a position of strength. I think there is little doubt that Brandt means harm to Wikipedia's reputation, and intends to do such harm by placing adverse media stories. This will happen whether or not he is a Wikipedia editor.

Charles

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Jeff Raymond
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway

Tony Sidaway wrote:

> A purported "community ban" has been asserted by some editors, but
> community bans only operate insofar as no administrator is prepared to
> unblock, after contemplating the matter, the banned editor.  Jimbo has
> been in discussion with Daniel Brandt and several other administrators
> have co-operated on the technical side of unblocking Brandt, which
> turned out to be quite difficult, so no community ban applies at this
> time.

The cooperation may come not from a desire to see him unblocked (which few
people expressed during the discussion), but more to the typical "What
Jimbo says, goes" mentality of way too many Wikipedians.  I would not use
their compliance in helping Jimbo unblock properly as any sort of actual
approval of his actions outside of "Jimbo did it, thus it's good."

The community ban you speak of came *before* the massive discussion at the
community noticeboard - no one dared unblock him, thus it was a de facto
community ban.  Once ArbCom declined the matter (still a mistake, IMO),
the discussion to unblock him occurred and was soundly and decisively
rejected.

I'm willing to give Jimbo the benefit of the doubt that he may not have
been aware of the discussion, but if he was and did it anyway, that's
really, really troublesome.  There's certainly nothing to indicate that he
intended to invalidate the consensually-approved ban, and he's shown some
approval (perhaps not explicit, I can't be certain at this point) of
community-based measures for problem users.

-Jeff
--
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Pedro Sanchez-2
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
On 4/19/07, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Erik Moeller" wrote
>
> > I think we should all be willing to try out such experiments
> > more frequently, rather than dividing our world into friends and
> > enemies.
>
> Magnanimity is a good card to play against malice, when in a position of strength. I think there is little doubt that Brandt means harm to Wikipedia's reputation, and intends to do such harm by placing adverse media stories. This will happen whether or not he is a Wikipedia editor.
>
> Charles
>

Of course, 3 days ago this was posted on WR (the hivemind was taken
down a few days earlier)

 :"I also took down the IRC logs. As I move toward litigation, it has
become clearer to me that Jimbo and the Foundation are responsible for
the behavior of their editors, because they control the structure of
Wikipedia. There is no point in confusing the judge and jury."

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=8226&view=findpost&p=28305
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=8226

I don't know if the litigation intent had something to do with the unblock....

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Tony Sidaway
In reply to this post by Jeff Raymond
On 4/19/07, Jeff Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The community ban you speak of came *before* the massive discussion at the
> community noticeboard - no one dared unblock him, thus it was a de facto
> community ban.

Yes, until Jimbo unblocked there was a community ban.  When a
community-banned editor is unblocked, with a proper reason, then there
is no more community ban.  This is why I have said: no community ban
applies to Daniel Brandt at this time.

The same kind of limitation applies even to arbitration remedies.
There have been several incidents where administrators, or the
community as a whole, has declined to enforce remedies ruled by the
arbitration committee.  Where in some communities this would
precipitate a constitutional crisis, on Wikipedia these things tend to
be handled with commonsense and understanding, and always with an eye
to improving Wikipedia, not harming it.

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Info Control

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info Control [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:49 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?
>
>On 4/19/07, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Jimmy has given three reasons:
>> * he asked nicely
>> * we are talking about a productive way forward in the future
>> * it has been more than a year
>>
>> These seem like good reasons to me, and I trust his judgment in this
>> matter. I think we should all be willing to try out such experiments
>> more frequently, rather than dividing our world into friends and
>> enemies.
>
>
>
>Also, I'm inclined to agree with you, but my questions are still sort of out
>there... can the community overrule Jimbo, or is Jimbo pulling an OFFICE to
>overrule previous decisions by multiple admins here?
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard&oldid=122638406#Daniel_Brandt
>
>It's really more a question of what is Jimbo's authority in this matter
>relative to the decisions of other admins.

Wikilegally,

Daniel Brandt filed an arbitration case regarding his ban. Whether it was a community ban was one of the questions posed. Opinion was divided, but the case was rejected. However, one of the matters which the arbitration committee may consider is a community ban. Appeal of an arbitration decision is to Jimbo. Daniel Brandt appealed to Jimbo with the result we see. The arbitration committee can overturn a community ban, so can Jimbo.

Offenses of the party and community opinion are taken into account, but do not control.

Fred



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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Info Control
"Jeff Raymond" wrote

> The cooperation may come not from a desire to see him unblocked (which few
> people expressed during the discussion), but more to the typical "What
> Jimbo says, goes" mentality of way too many Wikipedians.

Well, in this case, Jimbo would be much better informed on Brandt than almost all admins.

> The community ban you speak of came *before* the massive discussion at the
> community noticeboard - no one dared unblock him, thus it was a de facto
> community ban.  Once ArbCom declined the matter (still a mistake, IMO),
> the discussion to unblock him occurred and was soundly and decisively
> rejected.

Jimbo could (if so inclined) have referred the case directly to the ArbCom, and in that case we would naturally have taken it. We (undoubtedly) would not have passed a motion to unblock.

> I'm willing to give Jimbo the benefit of the doubt that he may not have
> been aware of the discussion, but if he was and did it anyway, that's
> really, really troublesome.  There's certainly nothing to indicate that he
> intended to invalidate the consensually-approved ban, and he's shown some
> approval (perhaps not explicit, I can't be certain at this point) of
> community-based measures for problem users.

Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively unanimous, not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical difference.

Charles

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Info Control
On 4/19/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively unanimous,
> not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical difference.
>
> Charles



So I understand... if twelve admins say, User:X is community banned, but one
admin says, "No, he's really a nice guy, for reasons A, B, C, I'm
unblocking," and does... he can overrule them all?
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Jeff Raymond
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews

[hidden email] wrote:
> "Jeff Raymond" wrote
>
>> The cooperation may come not from a desire to see him unblocked (which
>> few
>> people expressed during the discussion), but more to the typical "What
>> Jimbo says, goes" mentality of way too many Wikipedians.
>
> Well, in this case, Jimbo would be much better informed on Brandt than
> almost all admins.

I'm not sure that's true, honestly.  I have no indications of it, although
I hope so.

>> I'm willing to give Jimbo the benefit of the doubt that he may not have
>> been aware of the discussion, but if he was and did it anyway, that's
>> really, really troublesome.  There's certainly nothing to indicate that
>> he
>> intended to invalidate the consensually-approved ban, and he's shown
>> some
>> approval (perhaps not explicit, I can't be certain at this point) of
>> community-based measures for problem users.
>
> Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively unanimous,
> not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical difference.

Then I think a lot of people are confused by the community ban
proceedings, and that will effectively make the entire idea behind it
toothless.

-Jeff

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

John Lee-14
In reply to this post by Info Control
On 4/20/07, Info Control <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 4/19/07, [hidden email] <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively
> unanimous,
> > not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical
> difference.
> >
> > Charles
>
>
>
> So I understand... if twelve admins say, User:X is community banned, but
> one
> admin says, "No, he's really a nice guy, for reasons A, B, C, I'm
> unblocking," and does... he can overrule them all?


Generally, yes, if he's acting in good faith. Community bans work by
consensus. If there is no consensus, that's where Jimbo or the Arbcom step
in.

Johnleemk
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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Tony Sidaway
In reply to this post by Jeff Raymond
On 4/19/07, Jeff Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively unanimous,
> > not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical difference.
>
> Then I think a lot of people are confused by the community ban
> proceedings, and that will effectively make the entire idea behind it
> toothless.

It has served us well for some years now.  In practice community
unanimity is usually pretty solid.

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Jeff Raymond
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway

Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Yes, until Jimbo unblocked there was a community ban.  When a
> community-banned editor is unblocked, with a proper reason, then there
> is no more community ban.  This is why I have said: no community ban
> applies to Daniel Brandt at this time.

I don't think you're correct on this.  I could very well be wrong, but I
don't think you're correct.  If you are, this is a very fundamental shift
in terms of the ability of the community to create any sort of lasting
sanction.
>
> The same kind of limitation applies even to arbitration remedies.
> There have been several incidents where administrators, or the
> community as a whole, has declined to enforce remedies ruled by the
> arbitration committee.  Where in some communities this would
> precipitate a constitutional crisis, on Wikipedia these things tend to
> be handled with commonsense and understanding, and always with an eye
> to improving Wikipedia, not harming it.

Apples and oranges.  Not enforcing a remedy in certain situations on a
judgement call is akin to not pulling over a person who's speeding.  This
is more akin to someone stealing $1000, being tried, convicted, but then
the warden saying "oh well" and opening the cell doors.

Unless Jimbo has pardon authority (which, for all intents and purposes, he
may), this remains problematic.  Even *with* pardon authority, this
remains problematic.

-Jeff

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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Info Control

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info Control [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:21 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?
>
>On 4/19/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> Don't follow. A community ban holds only when it is effectively unanimous,
>> not when it has a consensus behind it. That's a huge practical difference.
>>
>> Charles
>
>
>
>So I understand... if twelve admins say, User:X is community banned, but one
>admin says, "No, he's really a nice guy, for reasons A, B, C, I'm
>unblocking," and does... he can overrule them all?

Yes, but such actions depend on the user you unblocked acting different. You may have to block them again yourself. Unblocking in such circumstances implies a duty to monitor. See my actions with respect to Alkalada

Fred

Fred



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Re: Brandt unblocked by Jimbo - community support?

Info Control
In reply to this post by Pedro Sanchez-2
So to be clear, this is not a sanctioned OFFICE/WMF action and an admin in
Good Faith can re-block?
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