Bylaws

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Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
Question: As we now have the english version of bylaws online, shall
we send a "formal note" to Chapters commitee (chaptercommittee-l AT
wikimedia DOT org) to request approval of the bylaws? Are there any
objections?


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Re: Bylaws

Ilario Valdelli
Yes ;)

You should send a formal note and ask (informally) to someone in the
board to take care about the decision (otherwise it could require xxxx
time).

Ilario

Michael Bimmler wrote:

>Question: As we now have the english version of bylaws online, shall
>we send a "formal note" to Chapters commitee (chaptercommittee-l AT
>wikimedia DOT org) to request approval of the bylaws? Are there any
>objections?
>
>
>--
>Regards
>Michael Bimmler
>_______________________________________________
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>[hidden email]
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>
>  
>
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Re: Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
On 2/26/06, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes ;)
>
> You should send a formal note and ask (informally) to someone in the
> board to take care about the decision (otherwise it could require xxxx
> time).
>
Hm, I just sent a mail some days ago to Delphine and she told me that
ChapCom can now decide on chapters-bylaws without need for a board
vote --> I think, Delphine will take care of this request. Angela has
subscribed to this ml so in case board would like to make a
statement...
Well, then I will now send the mail.
Regards
Michael

> Ilario
>
> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
> >Question: As we now have the english version of bylaws online, shall
> >we send a "formal note" to Chapters commitee (chaptercommittee-l AT
> >wikimedia DOT org) to request approval of the bylaws? Are there any
> >objections?
> >
> >
> >--
> >Regards
> >Michael Bimmler
> >_______________________________________________
> >Wikimediach-l mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Bylaws

Manuel Schneider [Everything Open]
> vote --> I think, Delphine will take care of this request. Angela has
> subscribed to this ml so in case board would like to make a
> statement...
Delphine is already informed, I talked to her yesterday.
More information about the assembly later... I need some time now to relax.


Greets,


Manuel
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Re: Bylaws

Delphine Ménard
On 2/26/06, Manuel Schneider [Everything Open]
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> > vote --> I think, Delphine will take care of this request. Angela has
> > subscribed to this ml so in case board would like to make a
> > statement...
> Delphine is already informed, I talked to her yesterday.
> More information about the assembly later... I need some time now to relax.


Wikimedia Foundation Board and chapters committee are on the case. :-)
and have noted the concerns about being able to act as a chapter as
soon as possible in order to help with the Wikipedia Day.

Be patient.

Cheers,

Delphine
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Re: Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
On 2/27/06, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/26/06, Manuel Schneider [Everything Open]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > vote --> I think, Delphine will take care of this request. Angela has
> > > subscribed to this ml so in case board would like to make a
> > > statement...
> > Delphine is already informed, I talked to her yesterday.
> > More information about the assembly later... I need some time now to relax.
>
>
> Wikimedia Foundation Board and chapters committee are on the case. :-)
> and have noted the concerns about being able to act as a chapter as
> soon as possible in order to help with the Wikipedia Day.
>
Great!
> Be patient.
>
We'll be
> Cheers,
>
Regards
Michael

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Re: Bylaws

Frédéric Schütz
In reply to this post by Michael Bimmler
I am going forward with the translation of the bylaws in French... first
draft is getting there !

I have, however, a question about par. 10.3:

> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
> committee constitutes itself.

I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).

Any precise reference ?

Frederic
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Re: Bylaws

Jürg Studer

Am 14.04.2006 um 00:54 schrieb Frederic Schutz:

> I am going forward with the translation of the bylaws in French...  
> first
> draft is getting there !
>
> I have, however, a question about par. 10.3:
>
>> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
>> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
>> committee constitutes itself.
>
> I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
> meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
> does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).

maybe this helps: constituer
http://dict.leo.org/frde?
lp=frde&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&sea
rch=constituer&relink=on
and
http://dict.leo.org/frde?
lp=frde&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&sea
rch=constitution&relink=on

>
> Any precise reference ?
>
> Frederic
Regards
Jürg Studer

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-------------------------------------------------------
Jürg Studer
8008 Zürich
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Re: Bylaws

Frédéric Schütz
Jürg Studer wrote:

>>> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
>>> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
>>> committee constitutes itself.
>> I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
>> meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
>> does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).
>
> maybe this helps: constituer

Hum... no, it does not really help... Looking at the German text, it may
also be the word "otherwise" that confuses me: I don't really see how
the two parts of the sentence are related.

Are we saying that the comitee must provide the minutes, but that
otherwise, it is free to get organised as it wants ?

Frederic
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Re: Bylaws

rupert THURNER-2
frederic, you are right, this is somehow broken. and the two
completetely independet things:
 * provide the minutes within 2 months (a long time i thing ...)
 * decide who does what within the comittee
are mixed up in a sentence.

i think the whole bylaws is a little broken in this respect. it is
also broken in german.

the possibiilities are:
* you have defined roles (e.g. president, vize president,
  finance person, etc):
  * members vote for people in the comittee, the elected people
    decide who takes what role
  * members vote for persons in a certain role.
* you have no defined roles:
   * the persons elected are free to decide afterwards who
     does what within the responsibility of the comittee, i.e.
     they define their roles too.

and often you have a mixed thing: you have a defined role "president",
and otherwise the elected people are free to decide about their roles.

rupert.



On 4/14/06, Frederic Schutz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jürg Studer wrote:
>
> >>> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
> >>> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
> >>> committee constitutes itself.
> >> I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
> >> meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
> >> does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).
> >
> > maybe this helps: constituer
>
> Hum... no, it does not really help... Looking at the German text, it may
> also be the word "otherwise" that confuses me: I don't really see how
> the two parts of the sentence are related.
>
> Are we saying that the comitee must provide the minutes, but that
> otherwise, it is free to get organised as it wants ?
>
> Frederic
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediach-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>
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Re: Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
In reply to this post by Frédéric Schütz
On 4/14/06, Frederic Schutz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jürg Studer wrote:
>
> >>> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
> >>> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
> >>> committee constitutes itself.
> >> I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
> >> meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
> >> does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).
> >
> > maybe this helps: constituer
>
> Hum... no, it does not really help... Looking at the German text, it may
> also be the word "otherwise" that confuses me: I don't really see how
> the two parts of the sentence are related.
>
> Are we saying that the comitee must provide the minutes, but that
> otherwise, it is free to get organised as it wants ?
>
It's definitely mixed up:
First sentence = Committee (hey, by the way, why are we always using
the term commitee instead of board?) must send its minutes to its
members at the latest 2 months after. (Full stop). Then there comes
another sentence, meaning "The Committee does "organise" it self, i.e.
on the first associations, roles will be distributed (president is
voted separatly by member's association, but roles like treasurer,
secretary, vice-president, PR etc. are chosen by the board/committee
itself)." This doesn't have anything to do with the last sentence, I
don't even see why it's in this clause/part of the paragraph, the
german "Im übrigen" which was translated into "Otherwise", was somehow
intended to indicate "This last sentence has not so much to do with
the other sentences here" but the "otherwise" does not show this
anymore. My proposal: move the "otherwise the committee constitutes
itself" (german: Im übrigen etc.) away from §10.3 to §10.1 (The
committee consists of a president and 4 – 6 further members), there it
fits much better.
Regards
Michael
PS: I hope we have not any more strange things in the bylaws, we may
have to make a final proofreading session at the founding assembly,
because when we have once voted the bylaws, we cannot just fix these
things quickly but have to call together the members assembly each
time...
> Frederic
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediach-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>


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Re: Bylaws

rupert THURNER-2
i fully agree, i would even give it to some native english speaker
after the strangenesses are sorted out. i would also agree to change
it to "board" instead of "comittee", btw :)

rupert.


On 4/14/06, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/14/06, Frederic Schutz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Jürg Studer wrote:
> >
> > >>> The minutes are to be made available to the Association members not
> > >>> more than two months after a decision has been made, otherwise the
> > >>> committee constitutes itself.
> > >> I understand the general idea, but my dictionaries do not know any
> > >> meaning of the work "constitute" that would fit this sentence (neither
> > >> does the website http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=constitute).
> > >
> > > maybe this helps: constituer
> >
> > Hum... no, it does not really help... Looking at the German text, it may
> > also be the word "otherwise" that confuses me: I don't really see how
> > the two parts of the sentence are related.
> >
> > Are we saying that the comitee must provide the minutes, but that
> > otherwise, it is free to get organised as it wants ?
> >
> It's definitely mixed up:
> First sentence = Committee (hey, by the way, why are we always using
> the term commitee instead of board?) must send its minutes to its
> members at the latest 2 months after. (Full stop). Then there comes
> another sentence, meaning "The Committee does "organise" it self, i.e.
> on the first associations, roles will be distributed (president is
> voted separatly by member's association, but roles like treasurer,
> secretary, vice-president, PR etc. are chosen by the board/committee
> itself)." This doesn't have anything to do with the last sentence, I
> don't even see why it's in this clause/part of the paragraph, the
> german "Im übrigen" which was translated into "Otherwise", was somehow
> intended to indicate "This last sentence has not so much to do with
> the other sentences here" but the "otherwise" does not show this
> anymore. My proposal: move the "otherwise the committee constitutes
> itself" (german: Im übrigen etc.) away from §10.3 to §10.1 (The
> committee consists of a president and 4 – 6 further members), there it
> fits much better.
> Regards
> Michael
> PS: I hope we have not any more strange things in the bylaws, we may
> have to make a final proofreading session at the founding assembly,
> because when we have once voted the bylaws, we cannot just fix these
> things quickly but have to call together the members assembly each
> time...
> > Frederic
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimediach-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards
> Michael Bimmler
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediach-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>
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Re: Bylaws

Delphine Ménard
On 4/14/06, rupert thurner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> i fully agree, i would even give it to some native english speaker
> after the strangenesses are sorted out. i would also agree to change
> it to "board" instead of "comittee", btw :)

Well, the English translation is really there for us to lok at. And I
speak the three languages, and I am totally unable to understand fully
the German sentence (and hence its English translation) to help
Frédéric with the French. Someone did a funky copy/paste from the
German bylaws there ;-).

Delphine
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Re: Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
On 4/14/06, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/14/06, rupert thurner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > i fully agree, i would even give it to some native english speaker
> > after the strangenesses are sorted out. i would also agree to change
> > it to "board" instead of "comittee", btw :)
>
> Well, the English translation is really there for us to lok at. And I
> speak the three languages, and I am totally unable to understand fully
> the German sentence (and hence its English translation) to help
> Frédéric with the French. Someone did a funky copy/paste from the
> German bylaws there ;-).
>
/me pleads for non-guilty but accountable (as nobody here really
checked what has been copied in the very early phase of Bylawswriting)
> Delphine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediach-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>


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Re: Bylaws

Frédéric Schütz
In reply to this post by Michael Bimmler
Michael Bimmler wrote:

Thanks to everyone for providing explanations... I must admit of being
quite surprised about some of the content of the English translations; I
am not a specialist of English vocabulary about legal matters, but some
sentences indeed look strange.

> PS: I hope we have not any more strange things in the bylaws, we may
> have to make a final proofreading session at the founding assembly,

Please, please, pretty please, don't do that. The last time I was
involved in the founding assembly for an Association (also involved with
the free software/free content world), we did that, even though the
proposed bylaws had been thoroughly discussed by email beforehand. We
spent _hours_ going over every single word of each article, because
people suddenly got interested in little details they had not noticed
before, it was a _nightmare_. And this was purely a French-speaking
association, not a national-level association with translations in 5
languages of the bylaws... we should really make sure everything is
correct _before_ we start organising the founding Assembly (and if we
modify the bylaws, we have to ask the Wikimedia Foundation for approval
again).

But we shall do more rounds of proofreading before the assembly, for sure.

> because when we have once voted the bylaws, we cannot just fix these
> things quickly but have to call together the members assembly each
> time...

What happenend for the association mentioned above was that during the
first 3 years, at each regular annual general meeting, we made some
changes to the bylaws, to adapt them to the practical experiences we
made during the year; now, they are quite stabe and well-adapted to the
"real life". This is to be expected, and should not be a problem.

Frederic
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Re: Bylaws

Frédéric Schütz
In reply to this post by Michael Bimmler
Michael Bimmler wrote:

> My proposal: move the "otherwise the committee constitutes
> itself" (german: Im übrigen etc.) away from §10.3 to §10.1 (The
> committee consists of a president and 4 – 6 further members), there it
> fits much better.

+1

Frederic
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Re: Bylaws

Michael Bimmler
In reply to this post by Frédéric Schütz
On 4/15/06, Frederic Schutz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone for providing explanations... I must admit of being
> quite surprised about some of the content of the English translations; I
> am not a specialist of English vocabulary about legal matters, but some
> sentences indeed look strange.
>
> > PS: I hope we have not any more strange things in the bylaws, we may
> > have to make a final proofreading session at the founding assembly,
>
> Please, please, pretty please, don't do that. The last time I was
> involved in the founding assembly for an Association (also involved with
> the free software/free content world), we did that, even though the
> proposed bylaws had been thoroughly discussed by email beforehand. We
> spent _hours_ going over every single word of each article, because
> people suddenly got interested in little details they had not noticed
> before, it was a _nightmare_. And this was purely a French-speaking
> association, not a national-level association with translations in 5
> languages of the bylaws... we should really make sure everything is
> correct _before_ we start organising the founding Assembly (and if we
> modify the bylaws, we have to ask the Wikimedia Foundation for approval
> again).
>
> But we shall do more rounds of proofreading before the assembly, for sure.
>
Okay, this is actually what I wanted to say. Don't even know anymore
why I said "during founding assembly", I wanted to say "before
founding assembly". Sorry...

> > because when we have once voted the bylaws, we cannot just fix these
> > things quickly but have to call together the members assembly each
> > time...
>
> What happenend for the association mentioned above was that during the
> first 3 years, at each regular annual general meeting, we made some
> changes to the bylaws, to adapt them to the practical experiences we
> made during the year; now, they are quite stabe and well-adapted to the
> "real life". This is to be expected, and should not be a problem.
>
Sure, but we should make them as good as possible...
> Frederic

Michael

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