Cambridge meetup 21 May

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Cambridge meetup 21 May

Charles Matthews
I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11

It is on meta by request (more sisterly). The page at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Cambridge_11 also exists
but the intention is for people to sign up on the other page. Apparently
the Cockneys don't get confused by this, and I shall attempt to check
the meta page frequently.

Charles


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Charles Matthews
On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11

A site notice for this event would be helpful.

Charles


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Michael Peel-4

On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:

> On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>
> A site notice for this event would be helpful.

I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Charles Matthews
On 16/05/2011 08:55, Michael Peel wrote:

> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>
>> On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>>> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>>>
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>> A site notice for this event would be helpful.
> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>
Thanks - I didn't know there was a DIY route.

Charles


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and Calais as its opposite corners....

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:

> On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>
> A site notice for this event would be helpful.

I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Chris Keating-2
I have implemented my own suggestion and restricted the notice to a box more defined by Lincoln and Southend - I hope that is OK with people, I'm just a bit conscious that watchlist notices are quite intrusive and we should be careful not to tell the whole of the UK about every event happening in the whole country.


There is a good match between the profile of Wikimedians and that of Tweeters, so Twitter is a very useful tool for us as an organisation. If there's ever anything that we can usefully tweet about please feel free to email me, or do a reply to @wikimediauk.

Thanks,

Chris



On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and Calais as its opposite corners....


On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:

> On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>
> A site notice for this event would be helpful.

I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Deryck Chan
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2

Chris,
Currently geo-targeting is only accurate to country level (due to ISPs randomly moving IPs around within a country - Magnus, is that correct?), so the only surefire way of targeting all of Cambridge is to scoop up all of the UK, unfortunately.
Deryck

On May 16, 2011 2:05 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the
> moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and
> Calais as its opposite corners....
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>>
>> > On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> >> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>> >>
>> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>> >
>> > A site notice for this event would be helpful.
>>
>> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of
>> watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
>> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>

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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Rich Farmbrough
Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of  information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their exchange equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  registered addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  Smart reading of the traceroute will often give almost street level location but I doubt many people do that.  I know little about geo-targeting,  but it is something I need ot find out about, so any useful resoruces....

On 16/05/2011 14:52, Deryck Chan wrote:

Chris,
Currently geo-targeting is only accurate to country level (due to ISPs randomly moving IPs around within a country - Magnus, is that correct?), so the only surefire way of targeting all of Cambridge is to scoop up all of the UK, unfortunately.
Deryck

On May 16, 2011 2:05 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the
> moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and
> Calais as its opposite corners....
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>>
>> > On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> >> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>> >>
>> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>> >
>> > A site notice for this event would be helpful.
>>
>> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of
>> watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
>> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Chris Keating-2
The reason I'm concerned is that we already use geonotices quite heavily and will probably use them even more in the future. While there is no financial cost to the geonotices (obviously) there is an opportunity cost and a cost in terms of the attention they require - we should bear this in mind. I am a bit concerned that we will end up suffering from "advertising blindness" as people start to tune them out, which is more likely to occur if they see notices they don't find relevant. 

So I suggest we should have geonotices based on regional areas within the UK wherever we can, and only use UK-wide geonotices for things which are really of interest to Wikipedians nationwide - in which I would count a Cambridge University collaboration but not a Cambridge meetup, for instance. (Or indeed a British Library collaboration, but not a London meetup!)

I don't know the details of the geolocation database we use, but the one Google uses claims it can locate 62% of British IPs to within 25 miles of the actual location: http://www.maxmind.com/app/city_accuracy - even if the true figure is only 50% that's still very good for our purposes.

Chris

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Farmbrough <[hidden email]> wrote:
Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of  information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their exchange equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  registered addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  Smart reading of the traceroute will often give almost street level location but I doubt many people do that.  I know little about geo-targeting,  but it is something I need ot find out about, so any useful resoruces....


On 16/05/2011 14:52, Deryck Chan wrote:

Chris,
Currently geo-targeting is only accurate to country level (due to ISPs randomly moving IPs around within a country - Magnus, is that correct?), so the only surefire way of targeting all of Cambridge is to scoop up all of the UK, unfortunately.
Deryck

On May 16, 2011 2:05 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the
> moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and
> Calais as its opposite corners....
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>>
>> > On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> >> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>> >>
>> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>> >
>> > A site notice for this event would be helpful.
>>
>> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of
>> watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
>> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Rod Ward

I would echo the concerns about Geonotices as I’ve started to click the X to get rid of them as soon as they come up.

 

Also - although I live in Somerset my ISP (plusnet) is based in Sheffield so would I receive notices about meetups in Yorkshire, but miss out on those in Bristol  or Taunton (not that we have done one there yet)?

 

Rod

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Chris Keating
Sent: 16 May 2011 19:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Cambridge meetup 21 May

 

The reason I'm concerned is that we already use geonotices quite heavily and will probably use them even more in the future. While there is no financial cost to the geonotices (obviously) there is an opportunity cost and a cost in terms of the attention they require - we should bear this in mind. I am a bit concerned that we will end up suffering from "advertising blindness" as people start to tune them out, which is more likely to occur if they see notices they don't find relevant. 

 

So I suggest we should have geonotices based on regional areas within the UK wherever we can, and only use UK-wide geonotices for things which are really of interest to Wikipedians nationwide - in which I would count a Cambridge University collaboration but not a Cambridge meetup, for instance. (Or indeed a British Library collaboration, but not a London meetup!)

 

I don't know the details of the geolocation database we use, but the one Google uses claims it can locate 62% of British IPs to within 25 miles of the actual location: http://www.maxmind.com/app/city_accuracy - even if the true figure is only 50% that's still very good for our purposes.

 

Chris

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Farmbrough <[hidden email]> wrote:

Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of  information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their exchange equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  registered addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  Smart reading of the traceroute will often give almost street level location but I doubt many people do that.  I know little about geo-targeting,  but it is something I need ot find out about, so any useful resoruces....



On 16/05/2011 14:52, Deryck Chan wrote:

Chris,
Currently geo-targeting is only accurate to country level (due to ISPs randomly moving IPs around within a country - Magnus, is that correct?), so the only surefire way of targeting all of Cambridge is to scoop up all of the UK, unfortunately.
Deryck

On May 16, 2011 2:05 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the
> moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and
> Calais as its opposite corners....
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>>
>> > On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
>> >> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
>> >>
>> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
>> >
>> > A site notice for this event would be helpful.
>>
>> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of
>> watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
>> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>

 
_______________________________________________
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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

 

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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Michael Peel-4
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
This is definitely something we need to start thinking about. Thus far, whenever I've posted geonotices I've gone for a large area as there haven't been many events happening in the UK - sufficiently few that I believe some wikimedians will deem it worthwhile traveling a long way for them (e.g. I've attended London wikimeets, even though I'm based in Manchester - although I'm a special case as I'd probably continue doing that regardless ;-) ). With more events, then it does start becoming impractical to advertise them all so widely.

An alternative option to narrowing the geographical range, which particularly interesting if geonotices aren't that specific in location, is to do a summary geonotice, e.g.:

"Meetups this month: London on 8 May, Cambridge on 21 May, online on IRC on 3 and 17 May. More wikimeets and events are listed at [[:wmuk:Events]]. No wikimeets near you? Organise one!"

... this would have to lead to less spontaneous wikimeets, though, requiring about a month's planning - for comparison, the Cambridge meetup planning started on 7 May for an event on 21 May...

Thanks,
Mike

On 16 May 2011, at 14:05, Chris Keating wrote:

> Can I suggest some rather tighter geotargeting for that notice - at the moment it appears to aim at every Wikipedian in a box with Belfast and Calais as its opposite corners....
>
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 16 May 2011, at 08:48, Charles Matthews wrote:
>
> > On 09/05/2011 11:05, I wrote:
> >> I have posted a page for the next Cambridge meetup:
> >>
> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Cambridge/11
> >
> > A site notice for this event would be helpful.
>
> I've set up an en.wp geonotice for it (which appears at the top of watchlists). In general, the place to request these is at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice
> and any admin can make them live, by editing the page at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Geonotice.js
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
On 16/05/2011 14:39, Chris Keating wrote:
> I have implemented my own suggestion and restricted the notice to a
> box more defined by Lincoln and Southend - I hope that is OK with
> people, I'm just a bit conscious that watchlist notices are quite
> intrusive and we should be careful not to tell the whole of the UK
> about every event happening in the whole country.

I'm actually a bit concerned about this approach. What other major
channel is there for me to publicise a meetup? And are you justified in
assuming meetups are only of interest "locally!? At the recent London
meetup I met a Wikipedian who lives in Lancashire.

>
> I've also tweeted about it:
> http://twitter.com/#!/wikimediauk/status/70119179818242048 
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/wikimediauk/status/70119179818242048>
>
> There is a good match between the profile of Wikimedians and that of
> Tweeters, so Twitter is a very useful tool for us as an organisation.
> If there's ever anything that we can usefully tweet about please feel
> free to email me, or do a reply to @wikimediauk.
>
Well, I would say that the profile of those who actually come to meetups
is a bit more middle-aged than that.

On the general situation: there are few meetups outside London in a
year. Meetups are a way of drawing those who "only" edit into other
things. I'd like to see WMUK give the running of more meetups maximum
support.

Charles


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Chris McKenna
On Tue, 17 May 2011, Charles Matthews wrote:
>
> On the general situation: there are few meetups outside London in a
> year. Meetups are a way of drawing those who "only" edit into other
> things. I'd like to see WMUK give the running of more meetups maximum
> support.
>

I'm fully in agreement with this. I wont be able to make the Cambridge
meetup due to deadlines (I couldn't make one anywhere in the country), but
I think we should be aiming for at least 6 non-London meetups in a year
(one every other month). Particularly some that are not within commuting
distance of London - not to disadvantage those of us based in the capital,
but to advantage those who are not.

----
Chris McKenna

[hidden email]
www.sucs.org/~cmckenna


The essential things in life are seen not with the eyes,
but with the heart

Antoine de Saint Exupery


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Michael Peel-4
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
Just to note: WMUK doesn't own the geonotices; any admin can change them in the usual Wiki fashion. ;-)

Also: to be honest, it's a little difficult to see how WMUK can give much support to meetups. They're volunteer-led, advertised on-wiki, and don't really need anything to support them to make them successful as far as I can see. The London wikimeets have never asked for anything from WMUK (despite me prompting them to occasionally ;-) ). There are things WMUK could provide: for example, room hire (but most wikimeets are in a pub or cafe, without room hire costs), transportation costs for a speaker (but most wikimeets don't have speakers), internet access costs (but I know the London wikimeet pointedly avoids having internet access) or Wikipedia posters (not too useful in a pub, though?). I'd love to see us supporting the establishment of many more wikimeets, but we need some input in to how we could usefully do that.

Thanks,
Mike

On 17 May 2011, at 09:26, Charles Matthews wrote:

> On 16/05/2011 14:39, Chris Keating wrote:
>> I have implemented my own suggestion and restricted the notice to a
>> box more defined by Lincoln and Southend - I hope that is OK with
>> people, I'm just a bit conscious that watchlist notices are quite
>> intrusive and we should be careful not to tell the whole of the UK
>> about every event happening in the whole country.
>
> I'm actually a bit concerned about this approach. What other major
> channel is there for me to publicise a meetup? And are you justified in
> assuming meetups are only of interest "locally!? At the recent London
> meetup I met a Wikipedian who lives in Lancashire.
>>
>> I've also tweeted about it:
>> http://twitter.com/#!/wikimediauk/status/70119179818242048 
>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/wikimediauk/status/70119179818242048>
>>
>> There is a good match between the profile of Wikimedians and that of
>> Tweeters, so Twitter is a very useful tool for us as an organisation.
>> If there's ever anything that we can usefully tweet about please feel
>> free to email me, or do a reply to @wikimediauk.
>>
> Well, I would say that the profile of those who actually come to meetups
> is a bit more middle-aged than that.
>
> On the general situation: there are few meetups outside London in a
> year. Meetups are a way of drawing those who "only" edit into other
> things. I'd like to see WMUK give the running of more meetups maximum
> support.
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Charles Matthews
On 17/05/2011 09:40, Michael Peel wrote:
> Just to note: WMUK doesn't own the geonotices; any admin can change them in the usual Wiki fashion. ;-)
>
> Also: to be honest, it's a little difficult to see how WMUK can give much support to meetups. They're volunteer-led, advertised on-wiki, and don't really need anything to support them to make them successful as far as I can see. The London wikimeets have never asked for anything from WMUK (despite me prompting them to occasionally ;-) ). There are things WMUK could provide: for example, room hire (but most wikimeets are in a pub or cafe, without room hire costs), transportation costs for a speaker (but most wikimeets don't have speakers), internet access costs (but I know the London wikimeet pointedly avoids having internet access) or Wikipedia posters (not too useful in a pub, though?). I'd love to see us supporting the establishment of many more wikimeets, but we need some input in to how we could usefully do that.
Advance publicity and reporting are of course the basics. But if you
look around the world, or listen to participants, there is the chance of
tying meetups into other things (e.g. photography initiatives ...) to
have some variety and purpose.

Charles


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

River Tarnell-8
In reply to this post by Rich Farmbrough
In article <[hidden email]>,
Richard Farmbrough  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of  
> information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP
> addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their exchange
> equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  registered
> addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  Smart reading
> of the traceroute will often give almost street level location but I
> doubt many people do that.

I believe "often" here means "for Virgin Media cable users".

The way VM's network is set up means it's easy to locate users to
(roughly) city level, and often better if you can work out the
subdivisions they use within those areas.

For ADSL users, it makes no sense to assign IP addresses or do routing
based on the user's physical location, because all traffic has to go
through BT (or another wholesale provider) in London anyway, and the
route it takes after it gets to BT is not visible in traceroute.  So,
when the user connects the ISP just assigns the first available IP with
no regard to location.

It's possible that there is an ADSL ISP that still assigns IPs based on
physical location, but I've never seen one.

I'm fairly certain (and I've said this before) that for this reason
it's impossible to do city-level geolocation of UK users in any useful
way.

Even worse, MaxMind (the service Wikimedia uses) tries to "guess" the
location of ADSL users, and usually fails.  For example, when I used
Andrews & Arnold as my ISP, MaxMind decided I lived in Arnold, Notts.  
There was no indication that this location was guessed or might be
inaccurate, so it's not even possible to fall back to UK-wide
geolocation for ADSL users.

        - river.

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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Alex Stinson
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews


On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Charles Matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17/05/2011 09:40, Michael Peel wrote:
> Just to note: WMUK doesn't own the geonotices; any admin can change them in the usual Wiki fashion. ;-)
>
> Also: to be honest, it's a little difficult to see how WMUK can give much support to meetups. They're volunteer-led, advertised on-wiki, and don't really need anything to support them to make them successful as far as I can see. The London wikimeets have never asked for anything from WMUK (despite me prompting them to occasionally ;-) ). There are things WMUK could provide: for example, room hire (but most wikimeets are in a pub or cafe, without room hire costs), transportation costs for a speaker (but most wikimeets don't have speakers), internet access costs (but I know the London wikimeet pointedly avoids having internet access) or Wikipedia posters (not too useful in a pub, though?). I'd love to see us supporting the establishment of many more wikimeets, but we need some input in to how we could usefully do that.
Advance publicity and reporting are of course the basics. But if you
look around the world, or listen to participants, there is the chance of
tying meetups into other things (e.g. photography initiatives ...) to
have some variety and purpose.


In DC, we usually have an early afternoon activity before the Meetup at a resturaunt early evening, before some people retreat to a bar for Drinks (we don't really have the pub atmosphere in the states). For example, last Summer, we had one meetup where we did a guided tour of the Air and Space Museum, talked to some GLAM people about a collaboration, and then went to a Pizza joint to hang out and chat. Another recent one, included a photo scavenger hunt in the morning, a meeting at a library discussing the structure of the chapter and then a trip to a resteraunt. Almost all of these events had some users leaving and arriving part way through. I know New York does similar structure for events. It seems have something exclusive tied into the meetup (such as a tour or event) sometimes draws more people.

Alex Stinson

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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
On 17 May 2011 09:40, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> internet access costs (but I know the London wikimeet pointedly avoids having internet access)

Pretty much all Weatherspoons have free WiFi, it's just that the one
we go to in London has very poor free WiFi and we often can't get it
to work. That's not intentional.

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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Rich Farmbrough
In reply to this post by River Tarnell-8
Indeed "often" does mean that, pretty much, however my knowledge of
Virgin Media's infrastructure is limited to the half of it that was
Telewest, and even there is not great.  ADSL is indeed a different
kettle of fish, often hitting a BT DSLAM (IIRC) at the exchange then
performing some kind of LDAP or other directory lookup, to determine the
provider, then piping the ATM level call to the providers network as the
next (first outside the CP) hop in IP terms.  However the big providers
increasingly have their own equipment in the exchange, making this model
obsolete, and most of the small provders piggy-back big ones. Anyway I
am not a network engineer (although sometimes my ISP thinks I am) so
that's all a bit vague and don't quote me on it etc...

Doubtless Google, if they wished, could fish a unique ID from your
browser fingerprint and a postcode from your use of Google maps and
pinpoint you exactly.

On 17/05/2011 10:31, River Tarnell wrote:

> In article<[hidden email]>,
> Richard Farmbrough<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of
>> information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP
>> addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their exchange
>> equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  registered
>> addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  Smart reading
>> of the traceroute will often give almost street level location but I
>> doubt many people do that.
> I believe "often" here means "for Virgin Media cable users".
>
> The way VM's network is set up means it's easy to locate users to
> (roughly) city level, and often better if you can work out the
> subdivisions they use within those areas.
>
> For ADSL users, it makes no sense to assign IP addresses or do routing
> based on the user's physical location, because all traffic has to go
> through BT (or another wholesale provider) in London anyway, and the
> route it takes after it gets to BT is not visible in traceroute.  So,
> when the user connects the ISP just assigns the first available IP with
> no regard to location.
>
> It's possible that there is an ADSL ISP that still assigns IPs based on
> physical location, but I've never seen one.
>
> I'm fairly certain (and I've said this before) that for this reason
> it's impossible to do city-level geolocation of UK users in any useful
> way.
>
> Even worse, MaxMind (the service Wikimedia uses) tries to "guess" the
> location of ADSL users, and usually fails.  For example, when I used
> Andrews&  Arnold as my ISP, MaxMind decided I lived in Arnold, Notts.
> There was no indication that this location was guessed or might be
> inaccurate, so it's not even possible to fall back to UK-wide
> geolocation for ADSL users.
>
> - river.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>


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Re: Cambridge meetup 21 May

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Rich Farmbrough
On 16/05/2011 19:16, Richard Farmbrough wrote:
> Depends on the ISP, and, moreover, it depends on the granularity of  
> information they provide.  Most ADSL ISPs seem to enjoy churning IP
> addresses every 24 hours (possibly small hours resets of their
> exchange equipment).  Many geo-attempts I've seem simply use ISP's  
> registered addresses (hence eveyone lived in Woking, at one point).  
> Smart reading of the traceroute will often give almost street level
> location but I doubt many people do that.  I know little about
> geo-targeting,  but it is something I need ot find out about, so any
> useful resoruces....
And I have just ordered BT Infinity. Will I be more obvious, or will my
location remain fuzzy?

Gordo


--

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!


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