Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

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Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

Pat Gunn-2
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>I guess the real question here is defining who "we" is. I see "we" as
>the whole of planet earth,
>not just the current incarnation of the community. As for point 11, when
>people are investing money
>to see THEIR goals fulfilled, you kindof have to balance all the
>concerns of the various players.
>Not an easy task.

Given that our community is motivated by ideology (not a bad thing --
idealism is an underestimated thing in today's world), we need to
be extra careful to not let our goals fall astray. I would prefer
that the foundation bend very little or not at all (absolutely
no exclusivity arrangements with any business) on these matters.
If we look to our future audience, we can best serve them by keeping
the project from being corrupted by the quickest path to growth.
We don't need to care about anyone else's concerns but the
foundation and its projects. IMO, if external dealings require
such secrecy, we should simply show people and companies that
require such things to the door. I've seen volunteer communities
destroyed by such things before -- it's an ugly thing.

---
Pat Gunn
mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
http://dachte.org
If lightning is the anger of the gods, then the gods are concerned
mostly with trees -- Lao Tze

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

jmerkey-3
Pat Gunn wrote:

>Given that our community is motivated by ideology (not a bad thing --
>idealism is an underestimated thing in today's world), we need to
>be extra careful to not let our goals fall astray.
>
I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
it should be opened to embrace
a broader view of humanity.

Patt, I've managed people and companies for about 20 years, and have had
upwards of 500+
people reporting directly to me at various stages of my career. There
are three things that
motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
earth in career and
life advancement.

Knowledge, Power and Money.

In essense, they are all actually the same thing with regard to the end
result. What people truly desire
in life is FREEDOM to pursue their pursuits of pleasure and their
dreams. For many people, money is freedom
because is gives them security. For others, power is freedom because it
gives them the feeling they have control
over their lives and the lives of others. For a very very small minority
of people, knowledge and the pursuit of
enhancing their intellect and skill gives them the greatest freedom of
all - the power to mould their own destiny
and create new avenues of endeavor on the frontiers of human knowledge.
I personally am in the third
group, and have in my life experienced a freedom few people will ever
know because my skill and knowledge I cultivate
above all else, and power, money and freedom have been the reward --
things I never sought for themselves.

In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
power and not money, I fired them
at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
that people who are motivated by power
and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
collective efforts and will always put themselves
and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
are motivated by money are very
predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
organizations success. Their patterns
are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.

By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
status, etc. a large majority of the current
community are in this first group and are there for the power and
control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
also a lot of folks who are there solely
for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
the folks in the class motivated my money
are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.

My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
various platforms. What I am talking about
is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
absent. An element to concert it into something
that will endure as an institution into the far future.

So when I hear words like "corrupt", "motivated by ideology" all these
things mean "motiviated by power" to me,
and not the collective work of moving an organization into a positive
growth model for long term stability and
financial health. "Show them the door" is exactly what I would do with
any employee I hired who evidenced
power motivated behavior, using your words.

There's room for everyone and none should be discarded, all have value
and Wikipedia says its mission is to reach the
whole world. That means it should embrace the whole world. Including the
missing element in the community at present,
which is a healthy and vibrant business community within it. The power
motivated folks can still be admins in the Community
and other positions of power. The Knowlege pursuers can still edit and
stand with a foot in both worlds. And the Money people
can find new and innovative ways to improve processes and contribute to
avenue which will in fact reach the whole world.

All my love,

Jeff


>I would prefer
>that the foundation bend very little or not at all (absolutely
>no exclusivity arrangements with any business) on these matters.
>If we look to our future audience, we can best serve them by keeping
>the project from being corrupted by the quickest path to growth.
>We don't need to care about anyone else's concerns but the
>foundation and its projects. IMO, if external dealings require
>such secrecy, we should simply show people and companies that
>require such things to the door. I've seen volunteer communities
>destroyed by such things before -- it's an ugly thing.
>
>---
>Pat Gunn
>mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
>http://dachte.org
>If lightning is the anger of the gods, then the gods are concerned
>mostly with trees -- Lao Tze
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>  
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

Ray Saintonge
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
>it should be opened to embrace
>a broader view of humanity.
>
>There are three things that
>motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
>earth in career and life advancement.
>
>Knowledge, Power and Money.
>
>In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
>power and not money, I fired them
>at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
>that people who are motivated by power
>and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
>collective efforts and will always put themselves
>and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
>are motivated by money are very
>predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
>organizations success. Their patterns
>are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.
>
The people who are motivated by power are especially dangerous to those
who already have the power.

Those motivated by "other intangible ideals" (i.e. ideologues) are not
self-serving.  They see their ideology as being for the good of the
whole, and will readily sacrifice themselves in order to have their
ideology prevail. They make great suicide bombers, but tend not to stay
in that business for very long.

I agree about the money-motivated, but these are not the people that you
can count on for a lot of imagination.  The really bright ones become
MBAs where they can strive for the pinnacle of incompetence.  This
permits them to do an excellent job in the most complex of routine tasks.

>By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
>status, etc. a large majority of the current
>community are in this first group and are there for the power and
>control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
>either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
>also a lot of folks who are there solely
>for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
>the folks in the class motivated my money
>are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.
>
The Wikipedia admins who most severly exercise power are little more
than drill sargeants who like everyone to march in step with all arms
swinging in unison to the same height.  They are motivated more by order
than by power.

>My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
>motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
>those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
>various platforms. What I am talking about
>is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
>absent. An element to concert it into something
>that will endure as an institution into the far future.
>
Those motivated by knowledge or by altruism tend to pursue their goals
without considering how events around them influence their goals.  They
can be frustrated by the power games of the order freaks.  They will
listen to reason, and reconsider their views in the light of new
arguments.  They are most frustrated when opponents refuse to provide
reasonable arguments for their actions.

Ec

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

jmerkey-3
Ray Saintonge wrote:

>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
>>it should be opened to embrace
>>a broader view of humanity.
>>
>>There are three things that
>>motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
>>earth in career and life advancement.
>>
>>Knowledge, Power and Money.
>>
>>In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
>>power and not money, I fired them
>>at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
>>that people who are motivated by power
>>and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
>>collective efforts and will always put themselves
>>and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
>>are motivated by money are very
>>predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
>>organizations success. Their patterns
>>are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.
>>
>>    
>>
>The people who are motivated by power are especially dangerous to those
>who already have the power.
>
>Those motivated by "other intangible ideals" (i.e. ideologues) are not
>self-serving.  They see their ideology as being for the good of the
>whole, and will readily sacrifice themselves in order to have their
>ideology prevail. They make great suicide bombers, but tend not to stay
>in that business for very long.
>  
>
I put these people in the class of those motivated by the pursuit of
pure knowledge.

>I agree about the money-motivated, but these are not the people that you
>can count on for a lot of imagination.  The really bright ones become
>MBAs where they can strive for the pinnacle of incompetence.  This
>permits them to do an excellent job in the most complex of routine tasks.
>
>  
>
>>By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
>>status, etc. a large majority of the current
>>community are in this first group and are there for the power and
>>control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
>>either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
>>also a lot of folks who are there solely
>>for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
>>the folks in the class motivated my money
>>are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.
>>
>>    
>>
>The Wikipedia admins who most severly exercise power are little more
>than drill sargeants who like everyone to march in step with all arms
>swinging in unison to the same height.  They are motivated more by order
>than by power.
>  
>
Also true, but there are those I read about who go on rampages and have
to be desysoped.

>  
>
>>My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
>>motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
>>those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
>>various platforms. What I am talking about
>>is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
>>absent. An element to concert it into something
>>that will endure as an institution into the far future.
>>
>>    
>>
>Those motivated by knowledge or by altruism tend to pursue their goals
>without considering how events around them influence their goals.  They
>can be frustrated by the power games of the order freaks.  They will
>listen to reason, and reconsider their views in the light of new
>arguments.  They are most frustrated when opponents refuse to provide
>reasonable arguments for their actions.
>  
>
That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
reason.

Jeff

>Ec
>
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>[hidden email]
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>
>  
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

David Gerard-2
On 06/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
> reason.


Most annoying thing about Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects of any
sort: you are obliged to work with people you consider blithering
idiots. It's not optional.

(Hopefully it's good for the soul ;-)


- d.
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

jmerkey-3
David Gerard wrote:

>On 06/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
>>reason.
>>    
>>
>
>
>Most annoying thing about Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects of any
>sort: you are obliged to work with people you consider blithering
>idiots. It's not optional.
>
>(Hopefully it's good for the soul ;-)
>  
>
Amen brother.

:-)

Jeff

>
>- d.
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>  
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:

>On 06/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
>>reason.
>>    
>>
>Most annoying thing about Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects of any
>sort: you are obliged to work with people you consider blithering
>idiots. It's not optional.
>
A common characteristic of blithering idiots is that they try harder ...
to prove it.

Ec

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