Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

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Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is a file that was added to most MediaWiki extensions
almost exactly a year ago. It reads, in full:

"The development of this software is covered by a [Code of Conduct](
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct)."

This file was added on the grounds that "Now that we have a Code of Conduct
we need to advertise it." You can see the Phabricator task for adding the
file everywhere, including a lot of debate over whether it's a good idea,
here:

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165540

I removed these files from all my extension directories pretty soon after
they were added, on the grounds that I just think it's false information -
the development of my extensions happens mostly on my and others' laptops,
in private emails and so forth - not "Wikimedia spaces", and thus not
covered by the Code of Conduct, according to the CoC. Some corporate
person, for example, downloading my software, could see that file and think
that they're bound by the Code of Conduct when sending me a patch, when in
fact (for better or worse) they're not.

That's how it went until two days ago, when Antoine Musso submitted a patch
for my Site Settings extension (I don't know why that one specifically),
re-adding the file. I rejected the patch, on the same grounds as before,
but another developer, Chad Horohoe, overrode me and merged it in. That led
to a discussion featuring Antoine, Chad, a few other WMF developers, and
me, which you can find here:

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/437555/

Some of the (unbelievable) highlights:

- From Antoine: "Well then can we just archive this repository please?"

- From Chad: "Yeah no that's not how it works. If it's being hosted on
gerrit.wikimedia.org, it needs a CoC file. If you object to that, you can
find hosting elsewhere."

- From Amir Sarabadani: "Having CoC removed seems violation of CoC itself."

That last one is interesting, because the Code of Conduct doesn't mention
CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md at all. Which I would have thought Amir would know,
given that he's now a member of the "Code of Conduct Committee". (!)

Actually, CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md isn't really mentioned anywhere - it was never
voted on, and I don't believe it was even a directive from WMF management.
As far as I know, this was the work of a few solitary (can I say "rogue"?)
WMF developers who happen to have the ability to modify all the
repositories - and, I guess, are into advertising.

Now, we could talk about whether the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file is a good idea
- or whether it's even accurate - but I'd rather talk about the most
pressing issue, which is that a few developers have seemingly threatened to
delete my extensions from the Wikimedia Git repository.
That leads me to a few questions:

- Do developers like Chad Horohoe have the right to delete my extensions
from the repository? (I'm guessing they have the ability.)

- Is CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md now really mandatory?

- Is there some kind of chain of command, or process, for determining these
things, or are we in sort of a Wild West situation where whoever has the
ability to modify or delete other people's extensions can do so without
consequences?

Any thoughts or insight on these questions are welcome. There are some
disturbing implications to that thread, that I'd like to see resolved.

-Yaron
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Max Semenik
My personal opinion is twofold:

* The file shouldn't be mandatory because all policies should (and do)
apply automatically, there should be no magic spell to enable them on a
case by case basis. CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is mostly a GitHub convention that
allows that site to indicate CoC terms in its interface.

* However, users who disagree with the rules of using our resources
shouldn't be using them. If you're using Gerrit/Phabricator/wikis/lists/etc,
you're bound by our community's rules as far as interactions there go. Your
personal interactions related to these extensions are kinda gray area,
however it's important to remember that these don't just happen out of
nothing. For example, if someone asks you a question related to your
extension, this is probably because they've found it on mw.org and
downloaded it from our Git or ExtensionDistributor. Therefore, while we
don't want to play thought police we at the same time can't pretend we
don't care about them non-private aspects.

That being said, which parts of the CoC do you have a problem with?

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is a file that was added to most MediaWiki extensions
> almost exactly a year ago. It reads, in full:
>
> "The development of this software is covered by a [Code of Conduct](
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct)."
>
> This file was added on the grounds that "Now that we have a Code of Conduct
> we need to advertise it." You can see the Phabricator task for adding the
> file everywhere, including a lot of debate over whether it's a good idea,
> here:
>
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165540
>
> I removed these files from all my extension directories pretty soon after
> they were added, on the grounds that I just think it's false information -
> the development of my extensions happens mostly on my and others' laptops,
> in private emails and so forth - not "Wikimedia spaces", and thus not
> covered by the Code of Conduct, according to the CoC. Some corporate
> person, for example, downloading my software, could see that file and think
> that they're bound by the Code of Conduct when sending me a patch, when in
> fact (for better or worse) they're not.
>
> That's how it went until two days ago, when Antoine Musso submitted a patch
> for my Site Settings extension (I don't know why that one specifically),
> re-adding the file. I rejected the patch, on the same grounds as before,
> but another developer, Chad Horohoe, overrode me and merged it in. That led
> to a discussion featuring Antoine, Chad, a few other WMF developers, and
> me, which you can find here:
>
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/437555/
>
> Some of the (unbelievable) highlights:
>
> - From Antoine: "Well then can we just archive this repository please?"
>
> - From Chad: "Yeah no that's not how it works. If it's being hosted on
> gerrit.wikimedia.org, it needs a CoC file. If you object to that, you can
> find hosting elsewhere."
>
> - From Amir Sarabadani: "Having CoC removed seems violation of CoC itself."
>
> That last one is interesting, because the Code of Conduct doesn't mention
> CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md at all. Which I would have thought Amir would know,
> given that he's now a member of the "Code of Conduct Committee". (!)
>
> Actually, CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md isn't really mentioned anywhere - it was never
> voted on, and I don't believe it was even a directive from WMF management.
> As far as I know, this was the work of a few solitary (can I say "rogue"?)
> WMF developers who happen to have the ability to modify all the
> repositories - and, I guess, are into advertising.
>
> Now, we could talk about whether the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file is a good idea
> - or whether it's even accurate - but I'd rather talk about the most
> pressing issue, which is that a few developers have seemingly threatened to
> delete my extensions from the Wikimedia Git repository.
> That leads me to a few questions:
>
> - Do developers like Chad Horohoe have the right to delete my extensions
> from the repository? (I'm guessing they have the ability.)
>
> - Is CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md now really mandatory?
>
> - Is there some kind of chain of command, or process, for determining these
> things, or are we in sort of a Wild West situation where whoever has the
> ability to modify or delete other people's extensions can do so without
> consequences?
>
> Any thoughts or insight on these questions are welcome. There are some
> disturbing implications to that thread, that I'd like to see resolved.
>
> -Yaron
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l




--
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Chris Koerner
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Yaron,
I read over the conversation and would like to posit the question in a
different way.

> Some corporate person, for example, downloading my software, could see that file and think
> that they're bound by the Code of Conduct when sending me a patch, when in fact (for better or worse) they're not.

If the patch is submitted to a Wikimedia technical space (Gerrit) then
the submitter would be expected to follow the community expectations
outlined in the Code of Conduct. This, in my opinion, is a benefit to
you and other extension contributors. The CoC says (paraphrasing), if
you want to participate, great. We do have some things that are
considered unacceptable behavior. We include mention of this in
visible locations where it makes sense so folks are aware.

This should deter most well-reasoned folks from letting the worst of
themselves get the best of them. For those that persist in ignorance
of the expectations of the community, we can show them the door.

This keeps you, and any other individual contributor, from having to
figure out how to respond to anyone being a jerk new again each and
every time. It sets clear expectations for new members of our
community on how we treat each other.

So, the question I would put to you or anyone asking "Why do I have to
have this here?" would be, "Does having the Code of Conduct make my
work in this space easier and more productive?"

In my opinion, yes. Please take a moment and consider this before
deleting anything.

Yours,
Chris Koerner
clkoerner.com

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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Yaron Koren-2
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

Thanks for the responses so far.

Max Semenik <maxsem.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:

> However, users who disagree with the rules of using our resources
shouldn't be using them.

I actually agree with this. However, I'm not aware that needing to have a
CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file is a "rule" - it was never voted on, never
announced; it was just something a few developers did, and now are
apparently threatening anyone who undoes their handiwork.

> Your
> personal interactions related to these extensions are kinda gray area,

I don't see that - the CoC makes it pretty clear that it applies only in a
pretty finite set of spaces.

> That being said, which parts of the CoC do you have a problem with?

I never said I had a problem with the CoC; I do have various thoughts about
it, but I don't want to include them in this thread, because I don't want
to distract from the main issues.

Chris Koerner <nobelx at gmail.com> wrote:

> If the patch is submitted to a Wikimedia technical space (Gerrit) then
> the submitter would be expected to follow the community expectations
> outlined in the Code of Conduct.

That's true, but to be clear, I was talking about someone emailing a patch
text file to me.

> So, the question I would put to you or anyone asking "Why do I have to
> have this here?" would be, "Does having the Code of Conduct make my
> work in this space easier and more productive?"

Actually, that's not my question - my question is, *do* I have to have this
here? I haven't yet gotten a clear answer on this, except from the crowd
who put that file in in the first place. Max seems to agree that I don't,
although I'm not 100% sure.

Let me state again that I really don't want to talk about the relative
merits of the Code of Conduct. I have a bunch of thoughts about it, which
I'm happy to share with anyone, but not on this thread. Please just assume
for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm willing to abide by the rules
of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in
my extensions.

-Yaron
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Chris Koerner
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
“Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm willing to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the file as an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we had a discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this expectation you wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK with it?



Yours,
Chris K.
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Brian Wolff
I for one think that requiring a specific filesystem structure or notice in
a git repo is quite far afield from the sorts of things that CoC is
designed to deal with.

--
Brian

On Thursday, June 7, 2018, Chris Koerner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> “Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm willing
to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the
CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
> Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are
incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the file as
an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we had a
discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this expectation you
wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK with it?
>
>
>
> Yours,
> Chris K.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Yaron Koren-2
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
 Chris Koerner <nobelx at gmail.com> wrote:
> “Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm willing
> to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the
> CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
> Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are
> incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the file
> as an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we had
> a discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this expectation
> you wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK with
> it?

Brian is right that adding a requirement to include this file to the CoC
would be an odd move. But, if it did happen, I don't know - I suppose I'd
have two choices: either include the files or remove my code. I would be an
improvement over the current situation in at least one way: we would know
that rules are still created in an orderly, consensus-like way, as opposed
to now, where a small group of developers can apparently make up rules as
they go along.

-Yaron
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

John Doe-27
Honestly I find forcing documentation into repos to be abrasive, and
overstepping the bounds of the CoC.I also find the behavior of those
pushing such an approach to be hostile and overly aggressive. Why do you
need to force a copy of the CoC into every repo? Why not keep it in a
central location? What kind of mess would you need to cleanup if for some
reason you needed to adjust the contents of that file? Instead of having
one location to update you now have 800+ copies that need fixed.

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Chris Koerner <nobelx at gmail.com> wrote:
> > “Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm willing
> > to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the
> > CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
> > Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are
> > incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the file
> > as an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we had
> > a discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this expectation
> > you wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK with
> > it?
>
> Brian is right that adding a requirement to include this file to the CoC
> would be an odd move. But, if it did happen, I don't know - I suppose I'd
> have two choices: either include the files or remove my code. I would be an
> improvement over the current situation in at least one way: we would know
> that rules are still created in an orderly, consensus-like way, as opposed
> to now, where a small group of developers can apparently make up rules as
> they go along.
>
> -Yaron
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Ryan Lane-2
The most likely way for people to see codes of conduct is through
repositories, which lets them know they have some way to combat harassment
in the tool they're using to try to contribute to a particular repository.
It makes sense to have a CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md in the repos; however, if all
the repos are using the same policy, it's often better to have a minimal
CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md that simply says "This repo is governed by the blah blah
code of conduct, specified here: <link>". This makes it possible to have a
single boilerplate code of conduct without needing to update every repo
whenever the CoC changes.

It's a reasonable ask to have the file there, and this discussion feels
like a thinly veiled argument against CoCs as a whole. If you're so against
the md file, or against the CoC as a whole, github and/or gitlab are fine
places to host a repository.

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 5:39 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Honestly I find forcing documentation into repos to be abrasive, and
> overstepping the bounds of the CoC.I also find the behavior of those
> pushing such an approach to be hostile and overly aggressive. Why do you
> need to force a copy of the CoC into every repo? Why not keep it in a
> central location? What kind of mess would you need to cleanup if for some
> reason you needed to adjust the contents of that file? Instead of having
> one location to update you now have 800+ copies that need fixed.
>
> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >  Chris Koerner <nobelx at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > “Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm
> willing
> > > to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want the
> > > CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
> > > Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are
> > > incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the
> file
> > > as an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we had
> > > a discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this
> expectation
> > > you wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK
> with
> > > it?
> >
> > Brian is right that adding a requirement to include this file to the CoC
> > would be an odd move. But, if it did happen, I don't know - I suppose I'd
> > have two choices: either include the files or remove my code. I would be
> an
> > improvement over the current situation in at least one way: we would know
> > that rules are still created in an orderly, consensus-like way, as
> opposed
> > to now, where a small group of developers can apparently make up rules as
> > they go along.
> >
> > -Yaron
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

John Doe-27
*It's a reasonable ask to have the file there *Correct, its reasonable to
ask. Forcing it down peoples throats and cluttering 830+ repos with the
same file is not. Why not have it in the primary mediawiki directory and
note that it covers all sub-projects? Threatening users and telling users
that disagrees with your position about a file requirement not in the CoC
is flat out intimidation. Instead of saying *Maybe this should be brought
up for discussion *users are now defending and threatening users who
questioned them. Just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Feel free to
continue to personally attack those who you disagree with, instead of the
subject mater. Whatever


On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 8:48 PM, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The most likely way for people to see codes of conduct is through
> repositories, which lets them know they have some way to combat harassment
> in the tool they're using to try to contribute to a particular repository.
> It makes sense to have a CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md in the repos; however, if all
> the repos are using the same policy, it's often better to have a minimal
> CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md that simply says "This repo is governed by the blah blah
> code of conduct, specified here: <link>". This makes it possible to have a
> single boilerplate code of conduct without needing to update every repo
> whenever the CoC changes.
>
> It's a reasonable ask to have the file there, and this discussion feels
> like a thinly veiled argument against CoCs as a whole. If you're so against
> the md file, or against the CoC as a whole, github and/or gitlab are fine
> places to host a repository.
>
> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 5:39 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Honestly I find forcing documentation into repos to be abrasive, and
> > overstepping the bounds of the CoC.I also find the behavior of those
> > pushing such an approach to be hostile and overly aggressive. Why do you
> > need to force a copy of the CoC into every repo? Why not keep it in a
> > central location? What kind of mess would you need to cleanup if for some
> > reason you needed to adjust the contents of that file? Instead of having
> > one location to update you now have 800+ copies that need fixed.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >  Chris Koerner <nobelx at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > “Please just assume for the sake of this discussion that (a) I'm
> > willing
> > > > to abide by the rules of the Code of Conduct, and (b) I don't want
> the
> > > > CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md file in my extensions.”
> > > > Ok, hear me out here. What if I told you those two things are
> > > > incompatible? That abiding by the community agreements requires the
> > file
> > > > as an explicit declaration of said agreement. That is to say, if we
> had
> > > > a discussion about amending the CoC to be explicit about this
> > expectation
> > > > you wouldn’t have issues with including it? Or at least you’d be OK
> > with
> > > > it?
> > >
> > > Brian is right that adding a requirement to include this file to the
> CoC
> > > would be an odd move. But, if it did happen, I don't know - I suppose
> I'd
> > > have two choices: either include the files or remove my code. I would
> be
> > an
> > > improvement over the current situation in at least one way: we would
> know
> > > that rules are still created in an orderly, consensus-like way, as
> > opposed
> > > to now, where a small group of developers can apparently make up rules
> as
> > > they go along.
> > >
> > > -Yaron
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Yaron Koren wrote:

>That's how it went until two days ago, when Antoine Musso submitted a
>patch for my Site Settings extension (I don't know why that one
>specifically), re-adding the file. I rejected the patch, on the same
>grounds as before, but another developer, Chad Horohoe, overrode me and
>merged it in. That led to a discussion featuring Antoine, Chad, a few
>other WMF developers, and me, which you can find here:
>
>https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/437555/
>
>Some of the (unbelievable) highlights:
>
>- From Antoine: "Well then can we just archive this repository please?"
>
>- From Chad: "Yeah no that's not how it works. If it's being hosted on
>gerrit.wikimedia.org, it needs a CoC file. If you object to that, you can
>find hosting elsewhere."

It was really inappropriate for Chad to hastily and forcefully merge this
change.

MZMcBride



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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

nischay nahata
 I think that advertising the COC might still have been in "good faith",
though it should have been done with a mail to the project owners.

But what I find very objecting is the way the two developers have
communicated on the gerrit thread. Both Antoine and Chad (both senior devs
that we used to look up to) behaved in a rather dictatorish manner which is
not even seen around profit making companies. Neither cared to explain and
discuss on the issue, while Yaron was trying his best to.


Regards,
Nischay Nahata


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 9:49 AM MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yaron Koren wrote:
> >That's how it went until two days ago, when Antoine Musso submitted a
> >patch for my Site Settings extension (I don't know why that one
> >specifically), re-adding the file. I rejected the patch, on the same
> >grounds as before, but another developer, Chad Horohoe, overrode me and
> >merged it in. That led to a discussion featuring Antoine, Chad, a few
> >other WMF developers, and me, which you can find here:
> >
> >https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/437555/
> >
> >Some of the (unbelievable) highlights:
> >
> >- From Antoine: "Well then can we just archive this repository please?"
> >
> >- From Chad: "Yeah no that's not how it works. If it's being hosted on
> >gerrit.wikimedia.org, it needs a CoC file. If you object to that, you can
> >find hosting elsewhere."
>
> It was really inappropriate for Chad to hastily and forcefully merge this
> change.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by MZMcBride-2
To directly answer the question in the subject: of course Yaron's
extensions should stay in gerrit.wikimedia.org, without the file in
question.

We want MediaWiki's main development spaces to be inclusive and able to
bring developers together. I think we all agree that it's a loss if more
repositories end up being scattered on third party git servers.

Meddling with the content of repositories we host by forcing
Wikimedia-specific content is not responsible. For one, it makes it
impossible to multi-host a repository if such Wikimedia-specific content
is incompatible with the requirements of other hosts.

Federico

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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Sam Wilson
I think the point about 'ownership' of extension repos is an interesting
one: certainly Wikimedia-hosted projects do differ from other popular
FOSS projects in that there's far more collaboration on e.g. extensions
than is perhaps common elsewhere. For example, if you have a WordPress
or Dokuwiki repo it's basically yours to do with what you will, in that
no one is going to come and merge code that you've not okayed (obviously
there's a requirement for checking for random weird non-project or spam
stuff, but we're just talking about bonafide contributions).

There are some things that no one minds being committed by other
developers — most projects have some system of l10n messages being
incorporated easily, for example. And MediaWiki extensions now have the
great libraryupgrader which is in a similar vein (although I admit the
first time it ran on an extension I maintain I tried to revert it!).

But what I think we lack is particularly clear guidance for new
maintainers, who may come with experience of other projects where
they've had more autonomy, and for whom some random person committing
files will come as a shock. It'd be nice to just say "hey, now you're a
maintainer, you can expect others to help out and sometimes do things to
this code without waiting for your consent". I don't really think having
+2 rights is the same as being a "maintainer", and people with the
former should defer to the latter in most situations.

(Of course, advertising community norms is sort of what the Code of
Conduct file is there for! But I'm not really talking just about that,
but about the general idea that Yaron raised about when one can expect
others to change one's codebase. Maybe the CONTRIBUTING.md file should
exist too.)

— Sam.

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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Daniel Zahn-2
In reply to this post by Max Semenik
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My personal opinion is twofold:
>

I agree with Max here. The CoC applies anyways whether the file is in the
repo or not
because Wikimedia infrastructure is being used.

But we should not make it mandatory to keep a copy of this file in each and
every repo.

I don't see how "not having the file
is against the CoC itself" because it certainly doesn't say anything about
that, in that regard Yaron
is correct.

--
Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]>
Operations Engineer
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

nischay nahata
The right place for COC related stuff is probably on the Gerrit user
interface.

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:48 AM Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > My personal opinion is twofold:
> >
>
> I agree with Max here. The CoC applies anyways whether the file is in the
> repo or not
> because Wikimedia infrastructure is being used.
>
> But we should not make it mandatory to keep a copy of this file in each and
> every repo.
>
> I don't see how "not having the file
> is against the CoC itself" because it certainly doesn't say anything about
> that, in that regard Yaron
> is correct.
>
> --
> Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]>
> Operations Engineer
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Isarra Yos
This. The links should be in the interfaces in which we actually
interact with each other, not the repositories themselves. A repository
isn't even inherently a wikimedia technical space because it can be
cloned anywhere, as Yaron rightfully points out; using
gerrit/phab/things wikimedia manages to interact with it, however, is.
Yes, people could potentially use those without going through the
frontend UI, but it'd still hold. For them, if anything, it'd be even
more important not to clutter up the repositories with redundant files,
as they're working with more limited tools to begin with.

Given that these files don't contain anything meaningful (just a link,
thus requiring an extra step regardless to find the content); that
developers won't have any particular reason to open these files from the
repository while interacting with others, as the interaction that the
CoC covers happens via tools such as gerrit/phab/etc; and that these
files won't even be visible when people are using said tools as said
tools normally show only what's currently being modified, I highly
recommend losing the COC.md files entirely. It's clutter, to no
particular gain. Generic advertising, at best, in an often irrelevant place.

-I

On 08/06/18 06:50, Nischay Nahata wrote:

> The right place for COC related stuff is probably on the Gerrit user
> interface.
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:48 AM Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My personal opinion is twofold:
>>>
>> I agree with Max here. The CoC applies anyways whether the file is in the
>> repo or not
>> because Wikimedia infrastructure is being used.
>>
>> But we should not make it mandatory to keep a copy of this file in each and
>> every repo.
>>
>> I don't see how "not having the file
>> is against the CoC itself" because it certainly doesn't say anything about
>> that, in that regard Yaron
>> is correct.
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]>
>> Operations Engineer
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by Daniel Zahn-2
On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 8:18 AM Daniel Zahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But we should not make it mandatory to keep a copy of this file in each and
> every repo.
>

I'd argue we should, but let me say first that if we do make it mandatory,
that should happen via some mechanism that's appropriate for making policy
(RfC, TechCom decree, CoC committee decision, whatever) and not by making
threats in a gerrit comment thread. I don't doubt that everyone involved
had good intentions but the way the patch was merged was unfortunate IMO.

That said:
* The code of conduct is a tool to make contributors feel welcome. For some
of us being welcomed when we contribute our time and knowledge to an
opensource project is so natural that the effort might seem weird. Others
(especially those belonging to a historically oppressed or heavily
stereotyped group) have different experiences and might have become more
cautious about putting time and mental and emotional effort into getting
involved with a project, when such involvement in the past often resulted
in them being criticized or insulted for reasons having nothing to do with
their contributions. We should reach out to those people and tell them that
we care, that the MediaWiki/Wikimedia developer community is a respectful
space and they should feel safe to invest their time energy.
* Site footers are not a good place for that message, because people only
see them when they are fairly involved already. (Realistically, not even
then. Do you use Github? Have you ever read Github's terms of servce? I
didn't think so.) People interact with the files first, so that's the most
obvious place to put such a message. Moreover, CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is now
the standard way of doing that notice, thanks to Github's efforts to
promote it, so that's where people will look. If we want to signal
something very conspicuously, and there is a standard way of signaling it,
it would be dumb not to make use of that.
* Wikimedia technical spaces are the ones where we can directly enforce the
code of conduct. I don't think this means it ceases to exist at the borders
of those spaces. I stand by the thought experiment I gave when this topic
was discussed last year in the task Yaron linked: "Imagine a contributor
who is very misogynist but also very respectful of social contracts. This
person uses gerrit.wikimedia.org to host their code but runs their own
issue tracker. Female developers get mocked and insulted when they file
bugs, but their code submissions are treated politely because the gerrit
ToU demands that. It seems ridiculous to me to suggest that the Wikimedia
technical community should accept such a situation and not do anything
against it, on the grounds that the abuse happens outside our technical
spaces."
* There can be all kinds of reasons why the CoC file is not appropriate for
some repository (which is why it wasn't added to all repositories, just
MediaWiki and its extensions). But if we let people remove it for the sole
reason that they don't like the code of conduct, what does it say about out
commitment to enforce it? It sends the message "we have a code of conduct,
and we'll use it to protect you, except when the maintainer of some
repository disagrees". I do not think we want that.

I would be more sympathetic if I saw how having the CoC file there might
harm or even just inconvenience maintainers, but removing it just to make
some kind of philosophical point is unhelpful. Yaron, I respect you a lot
as a developer, I think your involvement in the CoC discussions was always
constructive despite clearly not liking the whole idea, and I'm sure you
wouldn't act (inside or outside Wikimedia technical spaces) in ways
inconsistent with the spirit of the code of conduct anyway, but this was a
silly fight to pick and I hope you'll reconsider (or if you have pragmatic
reasons for not wanting the file, you'll explain those).
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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by nischay nahata
On 08/06/2018 06:33, Nischay Nahata wrote:
>  I think that advertising the COC might still have been in "good faith",
> though it should have been done with a mail to the project owners.
>
> But what I find very objecting is the way the two developers have
> communicated on the gerrit thread. Both Antoine and Chad (both senior devs
> that we used to look up to) behaved in a rather dictatorish manner which is
> not even seen around profit making companies. Neither cared to explain and
> discuss on the issue, while Yaron was trying his best to.

Hello,

I disagree with the dictatorship manner, or I would just have force
merged my own patch. I was more waiting for feedback from the repository
owner and engage in a conversation.

I don't have an opinion about the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md beside that it has
been added on all mediawiki repositories hosted on Gerrit and that it
became the de factor standard on GitHub.  I just happened to notice the
file was missing and for sack of consistency proposed a change to
restore it.


About my comment on Gerrit:

| Well then can we just archive this repository please?

I was reacting to Yaron comment about development happening somewhere else:
| @Ladsgroup - not all of the development of this software is done on
gerrit.wikimedia.org (actually, very little of it is).

With the hasty conclusion on my side that: if the development is not on
Gerrit and Yaron doesn't want the COC.md file, he should be free to move
to a different hosting place.

In restrospective, I got how that could sound as a threat to arbitrarily
delete the repository.  *Yaron I apologize*, that never has been my intent.

One sure thing, I am quite happy the topic get raised to wikitech-l
which has a much larger audience than a single Gerrit change.  We will
see what the outcome happens to be.

cheers,

--
Antoine Musso



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Re: Can/should my extensions be deleted from the Wikimedia Git repository?

nischay nahata
It did sound like a threat given that no policy has been framed around
this, but I am glad to know that it was not your intent.

Also, its strange that someone can just remove someone else's code review
just like that on gerrit, add their own review and merge a patch.


Regards,
Nischay Nahata


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 3:46 PM Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 08/06/2018 06:33, Nischay Nahata wrote:
> >  I think that advertising the COC might still have been in "good faith",
> > though it should have been done with a mail to the project owners.
> >
> > But what I find very objecting is the way the two developers have
> > communicated on the gerrit thread. Both Antoine and Chad (both senior
> devs
> > that we used to look up to) behaved in a rather dictatorish manner which
> is
> > not even seen around profit making companies. Neither cared to explain
> and
> > discuss on the issue, while Yaron was trying his best to.
>
> Hello,
>
> I disagree with the dictatorship manner, or I would just have force
> merged my own patch. I was more waiting for feedback from the repository
> owner and engage in a conversation.
>
> I don't have an opinion about the CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md beside that it has
> been added on all mediawiki repositories hosted on Gerrit and that it
> became the de factor standard on GitHub.  I just happened to notice the
> file was missing and for sack of consistency proposed a change to
> restore it.
>
>
> About my comment on Gerrit:
>
> | Well then can we just archive this repository please?
>
> I was reacting to Yaron comment about development happening somewhere else:
> | @Ladsgroup - not all of the development of this software is done on
> gerrit.wikimedia.org (actually, very little of it is).
>
> With the hasty conclusion on my side that: if the development is not on
> Gerrit and Yaron doesn't want the COC.md file, he should be free to move
> to a different hosting place.
>
> In restrospective, I got how that could sound as a threat to arbitrarily
> delete the repository.  *Yaron I apologize*, that never has been my intent.
>
> One sure thing, I am quite happy the topic get raised to wikitech-l
> which has a much larger audience than a single Gerrit change.  We will
> see what the outcome happens to be.
>
> cheers,
>
> --
> Antoine Musso
>
>
>
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