Captcha word quiz

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Captcha word quiz

jidanni
Regarding http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help :
it says "Please contact the site administrators for assistance if this
is unexpectedly preventing you from making legitimate posts." but
doesn't have a button to do so.

Anyway, e.g., I have images turned off in my browser, so come up with
a word quiz.

Hmm, wikibooks not wikipedia? OK sorry.
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Philip Welch
On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Dan Jacobson wrote:

> Regarding http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help :
> it says "Please contact the site administrators for assistance if this
> is unexpectedly preventing you from making legitimate posts." but
> doesn't have a button to do so.
>
> Anyway, e.g., I have images turned off in my browser, so come up with
> a word quiz.
>
> Hmm, wikibooks not wikipedia? OK sorry.

You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape  
4.7 or something?

There are many important features waiting for our developers to  
implement. Supporting 1990's era web browsing is not one of them. I  
suggest you use a modern browser to browse Wikimedia sites in the  
future.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: Captcha word quiz

Mark Gallagher-5

G'day Phil,

> On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Dan Jacobson wrote:
>
>>Regarding http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help :
>>it says "Please contact the site administrators for assistance if this
>>is unexpectedly preventing you from making legitimate posts." but
>>doesn't have a button to do so.
>>
>>Anyway, e.g., I have images turned off in my browser, so come up with
>>a word quiz.
>>
>>Hmm, wikibooks not wikipedia? OK sorry.
>
> You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape  
> 4.7 or something?

Alternatively, he could be on dial-up.  Or he could be emotionally
scarred from the *many* times over the past year that Wikipedia pages
have stalled in loading because images wouldn't download.  Or he could
simply like browsing text-only, and really, who can blame him?

> There are many important features waiting for our developers to  
> implement. Supporting 1990's era web browsing is not one of them. I  
> suggest you use a modern browser to browse Wikimedia sites in the  
> future.

We strive to include everyone, regardless of their intentions:
neo-Nazis, paedophiles, corporate propagandists, physics kooks, road
warriors, LaRouche tragics, Randroids, trolls, even Tories.  But people
using set-ups that differ from that of Phil Welch, well ... obviously
*they're* up to no good and need to be squashed.

You need to approach Wikipedia in good faith, and the best way to
establish that faith is to browse with Firefox.  It's the choice of Phil
Welch, Mark Gallagher, and Willy on Wheels!

Firefox!  It's what's for dinner.


--
Mark Gallagher,  who used to be an elitist Lynx-using asshole on Linux


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Re: Captcha word quiz

Steve Bennett-4
On 3/19/06, Mark Gallagher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You need to approach Wikipedia in good faith, and the best way to
> establish that faith is to browse with Firefox.  It's the choice of Phil
> Welch, Mark Gallagher, and Willy on Wheels!
>
> Firefox!  It's what's for dinner.

A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
is probably required by very few people?

Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time you
make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but if
it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to get
images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of course.

Steve
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 3/19/06, Mark Gallagher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>You need to approach Wikipedia in good faith, and the best way to
>>establish that faith is to browse with Firefox.  It's the choice of Phil
>>Welch, Mark Gallagher, and Willy on Wheels!
>>
>>Firefox!  It's what's for dinner.
>
>
> A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
> a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
> is probably required by very few people?
>
Well, hiddenStructure doesn't work on browsers without CSS support
(read: text-only browsers, probably most screen readers, most old
browsers), but certain people still seem to think it's a good idea...

> Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time you
> make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but if
> it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to get
> images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of course.
>

AFAICT it would only be on registering; we've had quite a few sprees of
bot-automated account creation in the past (cf. Supertroll).

--
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Mark Gallagher-5
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-4

G'day Steve,

> On 3/19/06, Mark Gallagher <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> You need to approach Wikipedia in good faith, and the best way to
>> establish that faith is to browse with Firefox.  It's the choice of
>> Phil Welch, Mark Gallagher, and Willy on Wheels!
>>
>> Firefox!  It's what's for dinner.
>
> A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
>  a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
>  is probably required by very few people?

No.  There are legitimate reasons for people to browse without images on
(being blind is a rather good one), and blaming the victim of our own
carelessness is *not* appropriate.

> Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time
> you make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but
> if it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to
> get images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of
> course.

People on old computers that can only run Lynx?  People on poor
connections?  People in a work environment that enforces "no image
browsing"?

Now, it may well be that we *need* to use captchas and other things that
break in browsing environments other than
the-best-browser-on-the-most-modern-OSes.  But tt's one thing to say
"gee, we're sorry you can't register an account, but we have no choice,
because of vandals and that", and another entirely to say "get a better
browser and stop being difficult, you jerk".


Cheers,

--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse


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Re: Captcha word quiz

Philip Welch
On Mar 19, 2006, at 1:41 AM, Mark Gallagher wrote:

>> A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
>>  a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
>>  is probably required by very few people?
>
> No.  There are legitimate reasons for people to browse without  
> images on
> (being blind is a rather good one), and blaming the victim of our own
> carelessness is *not* appropriate.

There is a vast minority of people who can *never* browse with images  
on.

>> Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time
>> you make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but
>> if it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to
>> get images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of
>> course.
>
> People on old computers that can only run Lynx?

It's 2006. There are adolescents younger than "old computers that can  
only run Lynx". People who do not upgrade their computers for twelve  
years are not likely Wikipedia contributors. If you have an  
idiosyncratic preference for 1980's-era technology, don't expect us  
to indulge it--especially not at the cost of developer time and  
effort that can be used to benefit the Wikipedia in far better ways.

CLI fanatics who prefer to only run Lynx are probably a bigger  
constituency, but even that is an idiosyncratic preference we can't  
be expected to indulge.

> People on poor connections?

A Wikipedia captcha page presumably loads two images: the Wikipedia  
logo and the captcha itself. Perfectly feasible, if sluggish, on 28.8  
dialup. If your connection is slower than that, you probably wouldn't  
be contributing anyway.

> People in a work environment that enforces "no image
> browsing"?

People in such a work environment have that enforced policy because  
they should be *working*, not goofing off on the Internet. If that's  
a problem, their problem is with their employer, not us.

> Now, it may well be that we *need* to use captchas and other things  
> that
> break in browsing environments other than
> the-best-browser-on-the-most-modern-OSes.  But tt's one thing to say
> "gee, we're sorry you can't register an account, but we have no  
> choice,
> because of vandals and that", and another entirely to say "get a  
> better
> browser and stop being difficult, you jerk".

"Try using computing technology that was invented within the past  
half-decade" is not an unreasonable request. "Devote volunteer  
developer time and effort building features so that a small number of  
people using 1995-era technology can contribute to Wikipedia" *is* an  
unreasonable request.

All a captcha requires is images and forms. I have a Power Mac 6100  
from 1994 that had Netscape 4 on it, and probably Netscape 3 before  
that. It supports images and forms perfectly well. If we need to use  
things that require, at minimum, a 12 year old computer running 8-10  
year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we wrote  
the whole wiki in Flash or something, or used AJAX extensively, that  
would be silly and unreasonable.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: Captcha word quiz

Steve Bennett-4
On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:
> year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we
>...used AJAX extensively, that
> would be silly and unreasonable.

No, that would be cool. I was kind of hoping someone would do that
actually. You know how on various sites, you click a "reply" button,
and an edit box just appears without redrawing the entire screen?
That's how Mediawiki should work when you click "edit" on a section.
You know how in Gmail, you can click "compose" and the compose screen
comes up instantly? That's how Mediawiki should work when you click
"history" on a page.

Of course, a fall back method, such as that proposed by Gmail is only
right and fitting. But AJAX would kick arse.

Steve
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Philip Welch
On Mar 19, 2006, at 3:29 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> year old software, we're not the ones being unreasonable. If we
>> ...used AJAX extensively, that
>> would be silly and unreasonable.
>
> No, that would be cool. I was kind of hoping someone would do that
> actually. You know how on various sites, you click a "reply" button,
> and an edit box just appears without redrawing the entire screen?
> That's how Mediawiki should work when you click "edit" on a section.
> You know how in Gmail, you can click "compose" and the compose screen
> comes up instantly? That's how Mediawiki should work when you click
> "history" on a page.
>
> Of course, a fall back method, such as that proposed by Gmail is only
> right and fitting. But AJAX would kick arse.

Well, exclusively I mean. Although AJAX is awesome, it shouldn't be  
required.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: Captcha word quiz

Stephen Bain
In reply to this post by Philip Welch
On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape
> 4.7 or something?

Not everyone loves a face full of Goatse when they're browsing the
latest vandalised pages.

There should be an alternative to the captcha, at least for people
using screen readers. Perhaps something using small sound files would
be easier to implement than something text-based?

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Philip Welch
Philip Welch wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2006, at 1:41 AM, Mark Gallagher wrote:
>
>
>>>A little uncalled for? Especially when you're asking someone to go to
>>> a significant amount of additional effort to support a feature which
>>> is probably required by very few people?
>>
>>No.  There are legitimate reasons for people to browse without  
>>images on
>>(being blind is a rather good one), and blaming the victim of our own
>>carelessness is *not* appropriate.
>
>
> There is a vast minority of people who can *never* browse with images  
> on.
>
>
>>>Now, I'm not clear on whether this Captcha is displayed every time
>>>you make any contribution, or only when registering an account, but
>>>if it's the latter, then it seems almost *everyone* could manage to
>>>get images to display once for the purpose. Blind people aside, of
>>>course.
>>
>>People on old computers that can only run Lynx?
>
>
> It's 2006. There are adolescents younger than "old computers that can  
> only run Lynx". People who do not upgrade their computers for twelve  
> years are not likely Wikipedia contributors. If you have an  
> idiosyncratic preference for 1980's-era technology, don't expect us  
> to indulge it--especially not at the cost of developer time and  
> effort that can be used to benefit the Wikipedia in far better ways.
>
> CLI fanatics who prefer to only run Lynx are probably a bigger  
> constituency, but even that is an idiosyncratic preference we can't  
> be expected to indulge.
>
>
>>People on poor connections?
>
>
> A Wikipedia captcha page presumably loads two images: the Wikipedia  
> logo and the captcha itself. Perfectly feasible, if sluggish, on 28.8  
> dialup. If your connection is slower than that, you probably wouldn't  
> be contributing anyway.
>
<snip>

I've been forced to use Lynx over sluggish SSH tunnels before. With
image-only captchas I'd be locked out in the cold, dark and wet.

If you've actually bothered to read [[CAPTCHA]], you'll realise that
they're a pain in the arse, you insensitive clod.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Re: Captcha word quiz

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Stephen Bain
Look, you all keep saying what small number of people there is that
can't use captchas, and if it's only used for regestering accounts,
why not just put up like an address to the helpdesk or an email
dedicated specifically for this, and say "If you can't for some reason
see this image, send us an email and we'll set up an account for you".
And the address, obviously.

BTW, if people use browser unable to display images, how much would an
audio captcha really help (I mean, sound's way more hi-tech)?

--Oskar

On 3/19/06, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/19/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape
> > 4.7 or something?
>
> Not everyone loves a face full of Goatse when they're browsing the
> latest vandalised pages.
>
> There should be an alternative to the captcha, at least for people
> using screen readers. Perhaps something using small sound files would
> be easier to implement than something text-based?
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Mark Gallagher-5

G'day Oskar,

> BTW, if people use browser unable to display images, how much would an
> audio captcha really help (I mean, sound's way more hi-tech)?

Some people use browsers that cannot display images because they're
blind.  In such cases, audio is a Good Thing, and use of images
specifically designed to be unreadable to computers is not.


--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse


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Re: Captcha word quiz

Neil Harris-2
Mark Gallagher wrote:

> G'day Oskar,
>
>  
>> BTW, if people use browser unable to display images, how much would an
>> audio captcha really help (I mean, sound's way more hi-tech)?
>>    
>
> Some people use browsers that cannot display images because they're
> blind.  In such cases, audio is a Good Thing, and use of images
> specifically designed to be unreadable to computers is not.
>
>
> --
> Mark Gallagher
> "What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
> - Danger Mouse
>
>  
An E-mail request link is pretty effective, I think. It is reasonable to
assume that anyone who is intending to edit Wikipedia has some way of
reading and writing text, whether directly or via assistive technology,
and this will accommodate everyone who has them, without being
bot-friendly.

Also, a secure but accessible sound captcha is rather more difficult to
pull off than a visual captcha, since there are many more people in the
world with partial hearing than partial sight.

-- Neil

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Re: Captcha word quiz

Philip Welch
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:12 AM, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

> I've been forced to use Lynx over sluggish SSH tunnels before. With
> image-only captchas I'd be locked out in the cold, dark and wet.

For long periods of time? As your sole internet connectiob? I don't  
doubt it happens sometimes, but if it's not a regular occurrence,  
using Lynx over slow SSH tunnels doesn't seem like the perfect moment  
to go off and register a Wikipedia account.

--
Philip L. Welch
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by jidanni
On 18 Mar 2006 at 14:42, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You have images turned off in your browser? Are you using Netscape  
> 4.7 or something?
>
> There are many important features waiting for our developers to  
> implement. Supporting 1990's era web browsing is not one of them. I  
> suggest you use a modern browser to browse Wikimedia sites in the  
> future.

Wikipedia is the last site I'd expect to be telling people "Get a
better browser, loser!"  What are you going to do next, add user-
agent sniffing to turn people away if they're not using the right
browser, resolution, or operating system?

Anyway, Firefox and the Mozilla/SeaMonkey Suite, to name a couple of
fully modern browsers, offer the configuration option to disable
images.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/


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Re: Captcha word quiz

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by jidanni
On 19 Mar 2006 at 19:59, "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> AFAICT it would only be on registering; we've had quite a few sprees of
> bot-automated account creation in the past (cf. Supertroll).

I would hope so... there's one affiliate-program site I use that has
the extremely annoying "feature" of having a captcha you've got to
get through *every* time you log in, which really screws up Mozilla's
saved-password system, which generates a new record for the site
every time because the field values differ.

--
== Dan ==
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Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Brian Salter-Duke
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)
On Sun, Mar 19, 2006 at 10:42:29PM +1030, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>
> I've been forced to use Lynx over sluggish SSH tunnels before. With
> image-only captchas I'd be locked out in the cold, dark and wet.
>
> If you've actually bothered to read [[CAPTCHA]], you'll realise that
> they're a pain in the arse, you insensitive clod.

Ah, after reading all these messages, I finally find out what you are
all talking about. You are right, they are a pain in the arse. Do not go
that way.

[[Bduke]]
 

> --
> Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
> Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
> "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
> Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
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> ------------------------------

--
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       Post: 626 Melbourne Rd, Spotswood, VIC, 3015, Australia
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Re: Captcha word quiz

Neil Harris-2
Brian Salter-Duke wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 19, 2006 at 10:42:29PM +1030, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>  
>> I've been forced to use Lynx over sluggish SSH tunnels before. With
>> image-only captchas I'd be locked out in the cold, dark and wet.
>>
>> If you've actually bothered to read [[CAPTCHA]], you'll realise that
>> they're a pain in the arse, you insensitive clod.
>>    
>
> Ah, after reading all these messages, I finally find out what you are
> all talking about. You are right, they are a pain in the arse. Do not go
> that way.
>
> [[Bduke]]
>  
As you say, captchas are nasty, inconvenient and user-unfriendly.
However, sometimes they are the lesser of two evils. Where the other
evil is automated vandalism is one of those cases.

-- Neil

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Re: Captcha word quiz

Steve Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
On 3/19/06, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Anyway, Firefox and the Mozilla/SeaMonkey Suite, to name a couple of
> fully modern browsers, offer the configuration option to disable
> images.

You seem to be arguing something strange here. It sounds like you're
saying that the tools are available if people try hard enough, to get
themselves temporarily into a situation where they are unable to
answer a CAPTCHA, which they only need to do once.

If you're arguing something else, I apologise.

Steve
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