Categories and displayed name.

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Categories and displayed name.

HumanCell .org
    [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead]]
Is rendered as
    Categories: MyCategory
instead of
    Categories: DisplayThisInstead

i.e. the syntax is the same as piped link but is in fact a category sort key.

It'd be more consistent to use
    [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead|MySortKey]]

Has this issue been discussed before? Would there be any problems
introducing this change?

Cheers,
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Re: Categories and displayed name.

Rick DeNatale
On 4/6/06, HumanCell .org <[hidden email]> wrote:

>     [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead]]
> Is rendered as
>     Categories: MyCategory
> instead of
>     Categories: DisplayThisInstead
>
> i.e. the syntax is the same as piped link but is in fact a category sort key.
>
> It'd be more consistent to use
>     [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead|MySortKey]]

Off the top of my head, and after only a few sips of coffee this
morning, I think that it would be more consistent to use:

       [[Category:MyCategory|MySortKey|DisplayThisInstead]]

which would be consistent with the way pipes are used to parameterize
Image links e.g. [[Image:MyImage|thumb|Cool caption]]

It would also have the benefit of not breaking existing pages which
don't use this new syntax.

On the other hand allowing alternate presentations of category links
raises some consistency issues that might make it inadvisable.

--
Rick DeNatale

Visit the Project Mercury Wiki Site
http://www.mercuryspacecraft.com/
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Re: Categories and displayed name.

Markus Krötzsch
On Thursday 06 April 2006 14:05, Rick DeNatale wrote:

> On 4/6/06, HumanCell .org <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >     [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead]]
> > Is rendered as
> >     Categories: MyCategory
> > instead of
> >     Categories: DisplayThisInstead
> >
> > i.e. the syntax is the same as piped link but is in fact a category sort
> > key.
> >
> > It'd be more consistent to use
> >     [[Category:MyCategory|DisplayThisInstead|MySortKey]]
>
> Off the top of my head, and after only a few sips of coffee this
> morning, I think that it would be more consistent to use:
>
>        [[Category:MyCategory|MySortKey|DisplayThisInstead]]
>
> which would be consistent with the way pipes are used to parameterize
> Image links e.g. [[Image:MyImage|thumb|Cool caption]]
>
> It would also have the benefit of not breaking existing pages which
> don't use this new syntax.
>
> On the other hand allowing alternate presentations of category links
> raises some consistency issues that might make it inadvisable.
Yes, I agree with this point. The inline version [[:Category:MyCategory|
DisplayThisInstead]] works, and this is where you need alternative labels.
The alternative label is meant to facilitate inserting links into the article
text, not to obscure/rename the target. Why change the category name as
displayed at the page bottom? If there are really multiple senses for some
category, then it might be better to make two categories, possibly related in
a meaningful way in the category hierarchy.

--
Markus Krötzsch
Institute AIFB, University of Karlsruhe, D-76128 Karlsruhe
[hidden email]        phone +49 (0)721 608 7362
www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/WBS/     fax +49 (0)721 693  717

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Re: Categories and displayed name.

Tony Bowden-3
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 02:56:21PM +0200, Markus Kr?tzsch wrote:
> Yes, I agree with this point. The inline version [[:Category:MyCategory|
> DisplayThisInstead]] works, and this is where you need alternative labels.
> The alternative label is meant to facilitate inserting links into the article
> text, not to obscure/rename the target. Why change the category name as
> displayed at the page bottom? If there are really multiple senses for some
> category, then it might be better to make two categories, possibly related in
> a meaningful way in the category hierarchy.

I would prefer a way to be able to change how the link back to the
article appears on the Category page itself - not just how it is sorted
in that list...

Tony
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Re: Categories and displayed name.

HumanCell .org
In reply to this post by Rick DeNatale
On 06/04/06, Rick DeNatale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>        [[Category:MyCategory|MySortKey|DisplayThisInstead]]
> which would be consistent with the way pipes are used to parameterize
> Image links e.g. [[Image:MyImage|thumb|Cool caption]]
>
> It would also have the benefit of not breaking existing pages which
> don't use this new syntax.
Yes, I agree that is a clear advantage - don't want to go breaking
existing pages.

> On the other hand allowing alternate presentations of category links
> raises some consistency issues that might make it inadvisable.
Well I'd rather not, but here's why I think it is necessary... and if
anyone can think of a better way of doing the following I'd be
grateful if you could let me know.

 - I have a database of 10,000+ chemical compounds and would like one
article per compound.
- Compounds are related hierarchically e.g. "methane" is an "organic
compound" which in turn is a "molecular entitity" (cf
taxonomy/ontology)
- Compounds can have ugly names like "(+)-cis-3,4-dihydrophenanthrene-3,4-diol"

Current approach:
 - each compound is a category with three parts:
   1) a definition of the compound and its properties
   2) a list of sub-categories
   3) links to super-categories
 - make the article title a unique identifier (e.g. CHEBI15386) to
avoid the ugly punctuation
 - make category links meaningful to users
[[Category:CHEBI15836|Organic aromatic compounds]] replaces the ID
with more meaningful text

Any thoughts?  Are the issues just specific to my case or are there
more general issues at stake?

Cheers.

PS. Just found Semantic MediaWiki which looks very interesting.
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Re: Categories and displayed name.

Markus Krötzsch
On Thursday 06 April 2006 20:47, HumanCell .org wrote:

> On 06/04/06, Rick DeNatale <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >        [[Category:MyCategory|MySortKey|DisplayThisInstead]]
> > which would be consistent with the way pipes are used to parameterize
> > Image links e.g. [[Image:MyImage|thumb|Cool caption]]
> >
> > It would also have the benefit of not breaking existing pages which
> > don't use this new syntax.
>
> Yes, I agree that is a clear advantage - don't want to go breaking
> existing pages.
>
> > On the other hand allowing alternate presentations of category links
> > raises some consistency issues that might make it inadvisable.
>
> Well I'd rather not, but here's why I think it is necessary... and if
> anyone can think of a better way of doing the following I'd be
> grateful if you could let me know.
>
>  - I have a database of 10,000+ chemical compounds and would like one
> article per compound.
> - Compounds are related hierarchically e.g. "methane" is an "organic
> compound" which in turn is a "molecular entitity" (cf
> taxonomy/ontology)
> - Compounds can have ugly names like
> "(+)-cis-3,4-dihydrophenanthrene-3,4-diol"
>
> Current approach:
>  - each compound is a category with three parts:
>    1) a definition of the compound and its properties
>    2) a list of sub-categories
>    3) links to super-categories
>  - make the article title a unique identifier (e.g. CHEBI15386) to
> avoid the ugly punctuation
>  - make category links meaningful to users
> [[Category:CHEBI15836|Organic aromatic compounds]] replaces the ID
> with more meaningful text
>
> Any thoughts?  Are the issues just specific to my case or are there
> more general issues at stake?
>
> Cheers.
>
> PS. Just found Semantic MediaWiki which looks very interesting.
Yes, this could indeed be a nice use case for this extension. It gives you
some more freedom for describing relationships between your articles, and
maybe there are also other properties that one could associate with some
compounds (e.g. molecular mass).

If the taxonomy is all that you need, categories could also be a sufficient
solution -- the displayed article names really seem to be your only problem
here. Would it help to create redirects between articles with nice names and
articles with ugly names (note that you would also have to use "plus" for "+"
etc.)? If the category mechanism is used only for browsing, then this might
already suffice.

--
Markus Krötzsch
Institute AIFB, University of Karlsruhe, D-76128 Karlsruhe
[hidden email]        phone +49 (0)721 608 7362
www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/WBS/     fax +49 (0)721 693  717

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Re: Categories and displayed name.

HumanCell .org
> > PS. Just found Semantic MediaWiki which looks very interesting.
>
> Yes, this could indeed be a nice use case for this extension. It gives you
> some more freedom for describing relationships between your articles, and
> maybe there are also other properties that one could associate with some
> compounds (e.g. molecular mass).

Easy export of RDF is one obvious advange, but I'm not sure what other
benefits there are of using the extension.
Here is an example of any entry (no taxonomic information is shown):
  http://www.humancell.org/index.php/CHEBI15334

> If the taxonomy is all that you need, categories could also be a sufficient
> solution -- the displayed article names really seem to be your only problem
> here. Would it help to create redirects between articles with nice names and
> articles with ugly names (note that you would also have to use "plus" for "+"
> etc.)? If the category mechanism is used only for browsing, then this might
> already suffice.

I agree, I had thought of using redirects too and I think this is the way to go.
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Re: Categories and displayed name.

Markus Krötzsch
On Monday 10 April 2006 04:33, HumanCell .org wrote:
> > > PS. Just found Semantic MediaWiki which looks very interesting.
> >
> > Yes, this could indeed be a nice use case for this extension. It gives
> > you some more freedom for describing relationships between your articles,
> > and maybe there are also other properties that one could associate with
> > some compounds (e.g. molecular mass).
>
> Easy export of RDF is one obvious advange, but I'm not sure what other
> benefits there are of using the extension.

As you have seen, the extension currently is in development. Right now it is
mostly useful if you have external software to work on (parts of) your data.
In this case, you could use the RDF export to reuse wiki-data elsewhere, e.g.
in some search or statistics service. For instance we have an (experimental)
external service set up where you can ask advanced queries over the data, but
this part is Java at the moment. Improved non-Java internal search functions
are planned, but not included in the current version yet.

> Here is an example of any entry (no taxonomic information is shown):
>   http://www.humancell.org/index.php/CHEBI15334

The data I see there is of course highly specific, and I am not sure how a
search engine for such structures should even look like. So the bottleneck
for processing this data might not be the task of getting it into a standard
format like RDF, but to find a usable application that allows you to do thing
like to search for certain (implicit) chemical/structural features in your
compound base. Since you work with templates, annotation can actually be done
without too much effort by just evaluating the template (as in the German
"Personendaten" project). Semantic MediaWiki can also be used to annotate
templates, so you need not bother with annotating the articles themselves.


>
> > If the taxonomy is all that you need, categories could also be a
> > sufficient solution -- the displayed article names really seem to be your
> > only problem here. Would it help to create redirects between articles
> > with nice names and articles with ugly names (note that you would also
> > have to use "plus" for "+" etc.)? If the category mechanism is used only
> > for browsing, then this might already suffice.
>
> I agree, I had thought of using redirects too and I think this is the way
> to go.
--
Markus Krötzsch
Institute AIFB, University of Karlsruhe, D-76128 Karlsruhe
[hidden email]        phone +49 (0)721 608 7362
www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/WBS/     fax +49 (0)721 693  717

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