Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

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Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Lodewijk
Hi Roger,

I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something. 

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database. 

If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect? 

Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly  went

http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html

and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".

So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?

Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm

UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS
- wacky proposal

Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category

Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.

Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.

So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify


On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:


I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn

In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.

Perhaps it should look more like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill

And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.

Gordo




--

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!



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--
Roger Bamkin
01332 702993
0758 2020815
Google+:Victuallers
Skype:Victuallers1
Flickr:Victuallers2


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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Charles Matthews

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. 

Mmmm, yes, how about "UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme". That could get them queuing round the block.

Charles 

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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Roger Bamkin
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol

Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.

One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.

 We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.

What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something. 

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database. 

If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect? 

Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly  went

http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html

and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".

So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?

Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm

UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS
- wacky proposal

Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category

Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.

Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.

So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify


On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:


I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn

In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.

Perhaps it should look more like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill

And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.

Gordo




--

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



--
Roger Bamkin
01332 702993
0758 2020815
Google+:Victuallers
Skype:Victuallers1
Flickr:Victuallers2


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org




--
Roger Bamkin
01332 702993
0758 2020815
Google+:Victuallers
Skype:Victuallers1
Flickr:Victuallers2


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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Richard Symonds-3
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
"The Great Wiki Loves Monuments Sort-a-Thon - it's a monumental task!"

Perhaps that's a bit too cringeworthy....
Richard Symonds
Office & Development Manager
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0)207 065 0991

On 30/01/2012 16:11, Charles Matthews wrote:

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. 

Mmmm, yes, how about "UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme". That could get them queuing round the block.

Charles 


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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Roger Bamkin
I know this will probably make things worse, but if all our
(read:relevant for UK monuments) images had a geolocation, we could
just see on a map what we have, and thus what we lack.

Now all we need is an easy way to add locations to files...

Magnus


On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of
> photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol
>
> Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you
> thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we
> need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.
>
> One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM
> delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we
> have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a
> problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation
> problems gets worse.
>
>  We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we
> don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have
> pictures of.
>
> What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do
> have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?
>
> On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Roger,
>>
>> I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for
>> nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos
>> of something is also worth something.
>>
>> A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called
>> 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to
>> new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't
>> bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should
>> just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it
>> from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
>>
>> If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize
>> pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be
>> nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]>
>> escreveu:
>>>
>>> Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked
>>> where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot
>>> me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked
>>> pics. So I quickly  went
>>>
>>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
>>>
>>> and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics.
>>> We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that
>>> all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there.
>>> I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the
>>> wealth".
>>>
>>> So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our
>>> vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we
>>> already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we
>>> had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK
>>> categorisation project is low..... or is it?
>>>
>>> Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is
>>> what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is
>>> a successful photography project. Hmmm
>>>
>>> UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS - wacky proposal
>>>
>>> Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete
>>> Wiki-Commons-Category
>>>
>>> Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a
>>> village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with
>>> as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add
>>> their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely
>>> sourced files they can find from other sources too.
>>>
>>> Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc
>>> pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning
>>> category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for
>>> winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the
>>> quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of
>>> the chosen category.
>>>
>>> So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete
>>> or modify
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need
>>>> expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded
>>>> routinely (Grade I listed buildings).
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
>>>>
>>>> In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it should look more like this...
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
>>>>
>>>> And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
>>>>
>>>> Gordo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Joly
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://www.joly.org.uk/
>>>> Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Roger Bamkin
>>> Chair WMUK
>>> 01332 702993
>>> 0758 2020815
>>> Google+:Victuallers
>>> Skype:Victuallers1
>>> Flickr:Victuallers2
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Roger Bamkin
> Chair WMUK
> 01332 702993
> 0758 2020815
> Google+:Victuallers
> Skype:Victuallers1
> Flickr:Victuallers2
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>

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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Also, there's a tool for that [1]...

Magnus

[1] http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/fist.php

Pre-filled for "Grade I listed buildings in London" :
<http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/fist.php?doit=1&language=en&project=wikipedia&data=Grade+I+listed+buildings+in+London&datatype=categories&params%5Bcatdepth%5D=0&params%5Brandom%5D=50&params%5Bstartat%5D=&params%5Bll_max%5D=5&params%5Bcommons_max%5D=5&params%5Bflickr_max%5D=5&params%5Binclude_flickr_id%5D=1&params%5Bpicasa_max%5D=5&params%5Bwts_max%5D=5&params%5Bgimp_max%5D=5&params%5Besp_max%5D=5&params%5Bab_max%5D=5&params%5Bgeograph_max%5D=5&params%5Bgeograph_max_de%5D=5&params%5Bgeograph_max_channel-islands%5D=5&params%5Bfreemages_max%5D=5&params%5Bforarticles%5D=noimage&params%5Blessthan_images%5D=3&params%5Bskip_no_candidate%5D=1&params%5Buse_article_as_file_name%5D=1&params%5Buse_article_as_description%5D=1&params%5Bdefault_thumbnail_size%5D=&params%5Bjpeg%5D=1&params%5Bpng%5D=1&params%5Bgif%5D=1&params%5Bsvg%5D=1&params%5Bogg%5D=1&params%5Boutput_format%5D=out_html&params%5Bmin_width%5D=80&params%5Bmin_height%5D=80&sources%5Blanguagelinks%5D=1&sources%5Bcommons%5D=1&sources%5Bflickr%5D=1&sources%5Bgeograph%5D=1>


On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Roger,
>
> I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for
> nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos
> of something is also worth something.
>
> A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called
> 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to
> new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't
> bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should
> just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it
> from there thanks to the (to be built) database.
>
> If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures,
> that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to
> do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect?
>
> Lodewijk
>
> No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]>
> escreveu:
>>
>> Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked
>> where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot
>> me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked
>> pics. So I quickly  went
>>
>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html
>>
>> and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics.
>> We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that
>> all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there.
>> I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the
>> wealth".
>>
>> So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our
>> vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we
>> already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we
>> had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK
>> categorisation project is low..... or is it?
>>
>> Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what
>> we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a
>> successful photography project. Hmmm
>>
>> UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS - wacky proposal
>>
>> Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete
>> Wiki-Commons-Category
>>
>> Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village,
>> road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many
>> photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own
>> pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files
>> they can find from other sources too.
>>
>> Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc
>> pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning
>> category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for
>> winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the
>> quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of
>> the chosen category.
>>
>> So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or
>> modify
>>
>>
>> On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding
>>> urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade
>>> I listed buildings).
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn
>>>
>>> In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it should look more like this...
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill
>>>
>>> And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.
>>>
>>> Gordo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Gordon Joly
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://www.joly.org.uk/
>>> Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Roger Bamkin
>> Chair WMUK
>> 01332 702993
>> 0758 2020815
>> Google+:Victuallers
>> Skype:Victuallers1
>> Flickr:Victuallers2
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>

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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Roger Bamkin
Hi Roger,

I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though. 

Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there. 

As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished. 

But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :) 

So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it. 

Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas. 

With kind regards,
Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol

Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.

One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.

 We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.

What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something. 

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database. 

If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect? 

Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly  went

http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html

and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".

So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?

Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm

UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS
- wacky proposal

Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category

Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.

Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.

So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify


On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:


I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn

In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.

Perhaps it should look more like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill

And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.

Gordo




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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Roger Bamkin
Thanks
Lodewijk

I think thats a very good summary. Deciding what WLM is and what it isnt may shorten the debates. I'm not suprised that categorisation volunteers are thin on the ground. If it was fun then we wouldnt have the issue.

Useful to leave till London I think

regards
Roger

PS Finding new voluteers/activists is a good target.( know the Russian WLM got some articles written as their QRpedia exhibition got me doing translation for them and a few others.


On 30 January 2012 17:21, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though. 

Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there. 

As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished. 

But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :) 

So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it. 

Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas. 

With kind regards,
Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:

UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol

Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.

One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.

 We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.

What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something. 

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database. 

If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect? 

Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly  went

http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html

and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".

So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?

Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm

UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS
- wacky proposal

Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category

Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.

Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.

So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify


On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:


I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn

In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.

Perhaps it should look more like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill

And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.

Gordo




--

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!



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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Rich Farmbrough
Yes we do have an idea what we don't have pictures of.  Some articles
are tagged with "image requested" (talk page) and have a geo-tag.  ISTR
a tool that combines these, but I may have imagined that.

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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Yes it will be frustrating if you take a photo only to find there are better one already on Commons. And yes the upload of 1.7 million image from the geograph mean that we have far more images from the UK and Ireland than I suspect anywhere else.

But there is an easier solution than trying to turn WLM into a categorisation exercise, all we need do is for WLM UK  ask people to search first and look for gaps. If some of them do a bit of categorisation when they search that would be a bonus, but not an "official" part of WLM.

The recent change to Catalot combined with various bots means that our rate of digestion of the backlog has improved, and I think that a few percent will have been done by September, though that does mean that many categories for counties, cities and common structures will have thousands of images. Strabane had 3,500 when I looked recently. 

I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom Morris detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat and catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours. One of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference between categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and if we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation backlog will be seriously dented.

WSC


On 30 January 2012 17:21, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I think there are indeed a few things that characterize a 'Wiki Loves Monuments' - amongst those is, that it is a photo competition about monuments :) Hence, if categorizing would be the main activity, it would make a lot more sense indeed to find a different name. It would have nothing to do any more with 'flexible rules', but rather an entirely different concept. Which doesn't make it a bad idea though. 

Wiki Loves Monuments is a great way to get quite good quality pictures of monumental buildings. Even though you have many uncategorized images, there are definitely going to be many locations still without a good quality picture. At the same time, a big benefit is that you make a large group of people (especially amateur photographers) aware that Wikipedia is editable, which gives you an opportunity (not a garantuee) that they can be persuaded to stick around. Additionally it is a nice opportunity to work together with a different kind of partners, but I understand that you have no scarcity there. 

As far as I know, Maarten is currently trying to run a lot of the categorization automated, and that seems to be going well although it will take quite a while before it is finished. 

But yes, you will have definitely to ask yourself the question whether you want to run this competition at all. Most Wikipedians I heard so far on this topic seem indeed to be mainly worried about categorization, and find that of the most importance (please correct me when I'm wrong). Just don't get the impression that this potential audience that is out there (heritage enthusiasts, photographers) which you might be able to motivate for Wiki Loves Monuments, will be similarly interested in a 'categorization contest'. So far, I have met 1 non-Wikipedian interested in categorization. Ever. And he was only interested because he once did a paper or something on the topic :) 

So to put it simple: there is an opportunity to run a Wiki Loves Monuments in the UK. I personally think it is a great thing to do, and am happy to assist in any way possible to help you get it organized. But in the end, the enthusiasm and effort have to come from UK volunteers. I am not a categorization magician, so I can unfortunately not make that problem go away for you - even though I have tried to pull some strings and get other people take a look at it. 

Running a categorization contest/event for the Wikipedians (because other people are unlikely to be interested) before the start of Wiki Loves Monuments sounds like a great idea, because the two can potentially reinforce each other. Imho mixing the two up would make things complicated, and weaken both ideas. 

With kind regards,
Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 17:22, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:

UK Wikimedians are not entirely indifferent to proper subcategorisation of photos (outdoor or in) on a vaguely monumental theme - lol

Well that was a useful push at the linits of what is possible as I knew you thought that the rules were flexible. I'm feeling on this thread that we need to know why we are gathering more pics when we have so many.

One appeal in WLM was to see the blip of new users on commons that WLM delivered. I only offer the categorisation project because that is where we have a large backlog. I know the category model is tricky but surely its a problem we cannot allow newbies to ignore? Otherwise our categorisation problems gets worse.

 We are saying that we should ask people to take pictures of things that we don't have pictures of ..... but we have no idea which things we don't have pictures of.

What would you say were the main benefits of WLM. to the UK given that we do have thousands and thousands of photos that are uncategorised?

On 30 January 2012 14:59, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I feel sorry for you that you have the feeling that you went out for nothing. However, you did surely add to the wealth - having multiple photos of something is also worth something. 

A categorization project sounds great, but should probably not be called 'wiki loves monuments' to avoid confusion. It is also much less useful to new users, the main target group of Wiki Loves Monuments. We shouldn't bother them with Commons' horrible categorization structure - they should just identify what is on their photo, and we can (automagically) take it from there thanks to the (to be built) database. 

If you want to motivate people from our communities to categorize pictures, that would be a nice project in its own right. Perhaps it would be nice to do *before* wiki loves monuments - so that both get maximum effect? 

Lodewijk

No dia 30 de Janeiro de 2012 15:29, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> escreveu:
Anecdotal story: My wife decided to take me outside for a trip and asked where I wanted to go. I'd recently seen a tool by Magnus Mankse called Shoot me which lists out all the wiki articles geo tagged near you that lacked pics. So I quickly  went

http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wikishootme/index.html

and that listed out half a dozen useful places near me that lacked pics. We went out .... took the pics and when I went to load them I found out that all these pictures already existed ..... they were uncategorised, but there. I think I loaded some *new* pix but I'm not sure I added much to "the wealth".

So if our objective is to "supply everything to everyone" (paraphrase our vision), then first we need a copy of everything. It could be that we already have a copy of nearly everything if we could just sort out what we had and what we lacked. However the chances of running a successful UK categorisation project is low..... or is it?

Do you know I just typed the last sentence  and realised that that is what we want. We want a categorisation project. What we know will appeal is a successful photography project. Hmmm

UK WIKI LOVES MONUMENTS
- wacky proposal

Prize goes to the best five media files in a complete Wiki-Commons-Category

Entrants will ensure that they use a valid commons category for a village, road, type of monuments etc. They will populate that category with as many photos and videos and sounds as possible. They are invited to add their own pictures, viideo and sounds but also to collect as many freely sourced files they can find from other sources too.

Judges will look at wikimedia commons pages, wikipedia, wikisource etc pages that use or could use these resources. They will choose the winning category and the five media files that best illustrate its reason for winning. This is a "beauty" competition that is is not just based on the quality of the media but also the quantity, meta data and completeness of the chosen category.

So thats an idea for what might work Please feel free to ignore, delete or modify


On 30 January 2012 11:46, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:


I may have missed the point.. but.... doesn't this article need expanding urgently? I feel these types of articles should be expanded routinely (Grade I listed buildings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmondsworth_Barn

In the news currently because English Heritage have just bought it.

Perhaps it should look more like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mill

And, yes, I will edit the article - REAL SOON NOW.

Gordo




--

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!



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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

Tom Morris-5
On 3 February 2012 16:40, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom Morris
> detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat and
> catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours. One
> of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people
> could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session
> would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference between
> categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and if
> we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation backlog
> will be seriously dented.
>

I'm wondering if anyone wants to join in with a proposal to have one
Wikimania session in DC as a skills sharing thing? Or how we would
convince the Wikimania organisers that we need less pontificating and
more training? ;-)

--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>

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Re: Categorization project? (was: Making Wikipedia loves monuments work in the UK.)

WereSpielChequers-2
Hi Tom,

There's only one way to find out. http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Skillshare

WSC

On 3 February 2012 16:56, Tom Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3 February 2012 16:40, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think we could speed that up by a wiki skills event somewhat as Tom Morris
> detailed, but maybe more one to one sessions. I've taught people hotcat and
> catalot using my netbook in various meetups in pubs and pizza parlours. One
> of my suggestions for wikimania was a skill sharing lounge where people
> could teach each other various tools, and I suspect that such a session
> would be a useful and popular event for the office. The difference between
> categorising on commons with and without catalot is quite staggering and if
> we can encourage more editors to use such tools the categorisation backlog
> will be seriously dented.
>

I'm wondering if anyone wants to join in with a proposal to have one
Wikimania session in DC as a skills sharing thing? Or how we would
convince the Wikimania organisers that we need less pontificating and
more training? ;-)

--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>

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