Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

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Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Nathan Larson
I propose that we change the installer to make Project:, rather than the
wiki name, the default option for meta namespace
<Manual:$wgMetaNamespace>name (i.e. namespace
4 <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace#Built-in_namespaces>).
See bug 60168 <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60168>. Here
is an image of what I have in mind that the installer should show:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/b/b9/ProjectDefaultNamespace.png

Rationales:
1) Standardizing the name makes life easier when people copy content from
one wiki to another. E.g., if you import a template that links to
Project:Policy rather than BarWiki:Policy, you don't need to edit the
imported template, because it already links where it should.

2) Having the meta namespace name be the same as the wiki name causes
collisions with interwiki prefixes when content is copied from one wiki to
another. E.g., suppose FooWiki has an interwiki prefix linking to BarWiki
(barwiki:) and then a user imports a template from BarWiki that links to
BarWiki:Policy. That will now link interwiki to BarWiki's mainspace page
"Policy" rather than to Project:Policy. It is not even possible to import
BarWiki:Policy until the interwiki barwiki: prefix is first removed; the
importer will say "Page 'BarWiki:Policy' is not imported because its name
is reserved for external linking (interwiki)."

3) If you ever change the name of the wiki, you then have to change all the
wikilinks to FooWiki: namespace; if it were Project:, they would stay the
same. True, you can use namespace
aliases<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases>,
but that could defeat part of the point of rebranding, which is to
deprecate use of the old wiki name.

4) We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are,
by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for
making an exception for the meta namespace?

--
Nathan Larson <https://mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Leucosticte>
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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

K. Peachey-2
On 4 May 2014 05:38, Nathan Larson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 4) We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are,
> by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for
> making an exception for the meta namespace?
>
>
Because the Template/User namespaces aren't the same thing as the project
namespace?
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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Nathan Larson
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 7:11 PM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 May 2014 05:38, Nathan Larson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 4) We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that
> are,
> > by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for
> > making an exception for the meta namespace?
> >
> >
> Because the Template/User namespaces aren't the same thing as the project
> namespace?


The Category namespace isn't the same thing as the Template or User
namespaces either, but by default it's called by the same name from one
wiki to the next. So, what makes the meta namespace so special?

If the argument is "The contents of the meta namespace differ from one wiki
to the next; therefore the name of the meta namespace should also differ",
that same argument could apply to all the other namespaces as well. The
templates of enwiktionary, for example, differ from the templates of
enwiki, but the namespace is called Template: on both.
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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Max Semenik
In reply to this post by Nathan Larson
This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki
language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English
users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian
wikis and so on. Thus, you're attempting to disrupt MediaWiki's
localizability for the sake of your ephemerous Inclumedia project. I don't
think this is what our users want.


On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Nathan Larson
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I propose that we change the installer to make Project:, rather than the
> wiki name, the default option for meta namespace
> <Manual:$wgMetaNamespace>name (i.e. namespace
> 4 <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace#Built-in_namespaces>).
> See bug 60168 <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60168>. Here
> is an image of what I have in mind that the installer should show:
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/b/b9/ProjectDefaultNamespace.png
>
> Rationales:
> 1) Standardizing the name makes life easier when people copy content from
> one wiki to another. E.g., if you import a template that links to
> Project:Policy rather than BarWiki:Policy, you don't need to edit the
> imported template, because it already links where it should.
>
> 2) Having the meta namespace name be the same as the wiki name causes
> collisions with interwiki prefixes when content is copied from one wiki to
> another. E.g., suppose FooWiki has an interwiki prefix linking to BarWiki
> (barwiki:) and then a user imports a template from BarWiki that links to
> BarWiki:Policy. That will now link interwiki to BarWiki's mainspace page
> "Policy" rather than to Project:Policy. It is not even possible to import
> BarWiki:Policy until the interwiki barwiki: prefix is first removed; the
> importer will say "Page 'BarWiki:Policy' is not imported because its name
> is reserved for external linking (interwiki)."
>
> 3) If you ever change the name of the wiki, you then have to change all the
> wikilinks to FooWiki: namespace; if it were Project:, they would stay the
> same. True, you can use namespace
> aliases<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases>,
> but that could defeat part of the point of rebranding, which is to
> deprecate use of the old wiki name.
>
> 4) We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are,
> by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for
> making an exception for the meta namespace?
>
> --
> Nathan Larson <https://mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Leucosticte>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l




--
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Nathan Larson
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki
> language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English
> users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian
> wikis and so on. Thus, you're attempting to disrupt MediaWiki's
> localizability for the sake of your ephemerous Inclumedia project. I don't
> think this is what our users want.


That's a non sequitur, as there has been no mention of Inclumedia anywhere
in the discussion of this bug, and this proposal has no relation to
Inclumedia. Nor does it have much relevance to to localisation, that I know
of. The option of making Project: the name of the meta namespace is already
available, and works fine when selected; this merely makes it the default
option in the installer, so as to encourage what appears to be a better
practice.

If you choose Abkhazian as the language in the installer, it will give you
option of setting the meta namespace to Проект (Abkhazian for "Project").
This appears to be set in includes/installer/i18n/ru.json. In that file,
the line reads ("config-ns-generic": "Проект",). In MessagesAb.php and so
on, the meta talk namespace name is set by
$namespaceNames[NS_PROJECT_TALK]. In that file, it says NS_PROJECT_TALK
=> '$1_ахцәажәара', If you pick that option, your meta talk namespace will
be Проект_ахцәажәара, as it should be. So it seems like this wouldn't
interfere with localisation in the way you describe.

I don't see how the proposed change forces anything down the throats of
anyone any more than the current situation does; some option or another has
to be the default, so the question is what's the best option to encourage
people to pick.
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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Matthew Flaschen-2
In reply to this post by Max Semenik
On 05/04/2014 05:08 AM, Max Semenik wrote:
> This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki
> language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English
> users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian
> wikis and so on.

I think you may be misunderstanding the proposal.  I think it's
proposing to use standard namespace names for the project namespace,
rather than wiki-specific ones like the Wikipedia namespace.

That's not the same as not localizing the standard namespaces.  For
instance, Spanish Wikipedia uses the standard namespaces for e.g. User
(Usario) and Category (Categoría) (that means e.g. Usario:Foo and
User:Foo both work).

However, it uses Wikipedia for the meta namespace.  Under this, it seems
by default a new Spanish wiki would use Proyecto, with Project also
working and referring to the same page.

Matt Flaschen


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Re: Change the installer to make Project: the default option for meta namespace name

Krinkle
Note that "Project" and "Project talk" already work on any wiki. They are the canonical names for the namespace in question.

Namespaces have:
* a localised/standard name for the local wiki (based on configuration like Wikipedia and/or localisation like Usario).
* a canonical name (that is language and wiki independent, except for extra custom namespaces where the localised name becomes the canonical one, but project is not an extra custom namespace).
* aliases (alternate translations or legacy names, such as "Image").

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_talk:X
->
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_ discusión:X

— Krinkle

On 11 May 2014, at 16:15, Matthew Flaschen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/04/2014 05:08 AM, Max Semenik wrote:
>> This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki
>> language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English
>> users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian
>> wikis and so on.
>
> I think you may be misunderstanding the proposal.  I think it's proposing to use standard namespace names for the project namespace, rather than wiki-specific ones like the Wikipedia namespace.
>
> That's not the same as not localizing the standard namespaces.  For instance, Spanish Wikipedia uses the standard namespaces for e.g. User (Usario) and Category (Categoría) (that means e.g. Usario:Foo and User:Foo both work).
>
> However, it uses Wikipedia for the meta namespace.  Under this, it seems by default a new Spanish wiki would use Proyecto, with Project also working and referring to the same page.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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