Copyright of Vatican stuff

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Copyright of Vatican stuff

Tomasz Ganicz
Hello,

There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
signed by Pope. According to:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html

and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.

We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals

and

http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia

What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
all these documents?

--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Robert S. Horning
Tomasz Ganicz wrote:

>Hello,
>
>There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
>Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
>signed by Pope. According to:
>
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
>
>and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
>Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.
>
>We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:
>
>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals
>
>and
>
>http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia
>
>What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
>asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
>all these documents?
>
>--
>Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
>  
>
As an independent soverign nation, the Vatican is free to do many things
in regard to copyright law that would normally not be acceptable in most
other countries, including retroactive copyright and other weird issues
as well.  The problem here is to see what sort of copyright enforcement
would generally be enforced through international treaties (is the
Vatican a member of the international copyright convention?) and general
common sense on things like this.  Common sense would seem to indicate
that the older encyclicals from the 19th Century and earlier would be
reasonable to keep on Wikisource, although I could see the Vatican even
trying to assert copyright on that as well.

As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are trying
to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try and keep
them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by having this
documentation available on Wikisource that we are making this content
available to people in not just wealthy countries, but some of the
poorer countries of the world including to people who don't necessarily
even have internet access and through multiple languages.  There are
many other points I'm sure you could come up with to really hit the
point home, and I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.

It is likely that the Vatican is simply going to reply that they have
their own website, and internet users can download the content from
there instead if they really want to get network access to the
documents.  It is worth a try to ask somebody from the Vatican however.

--
Robert Scott Horning


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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Finne Boonen-2
On 1/25/06, Robert Scott Horning <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tomasz Ganicz wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
> >Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
> >signed by Pope. According to:
> >
> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
> >
> >and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
> >Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.
> >
> >We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:
> >
> >http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals
> >
> >and
> >
> >http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia
> >
> >What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
> >asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
> >all these documents?
> >
> >--
> >Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> >http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
> >
> >
> As an independent soverign nation, the Vatican is free to do many things
> in regard to copyright law that would normally not be acceptable in most
> other countries, including retroactive copyright and other weird issues
> as well.  The problem here is to see what sort of copyright enforcement
> would generally be enforced through international treaties (is the
> Vatican a member of the international copyright convention?) and general
> common sense on things like this.  Common sense would seem to indicate
> that the older encyclicals from the 19th Century and earlier would be
> reasonable to keep on Wikisource, although I could see the Vatican even
> trying to assert copyright on that as well.
>
> As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
> good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
> Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are trying
> to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try and keep
> them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by having this
> documentation available on Wikisource that we are making this content
> available to people in not just wealthy countries, but some of the
> poorer countries of the world including to people who don't necessarily
> even have internet access and through multiple languages.  There are
> many other points I'm sure you could come up with to really hit the
> point home, and I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
> preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
> must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
> to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
> of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.

We have at least one clergy user on the dutch wikipedia
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:broederhugo
not sure wich specific religion tho.

henna
--
"Maybe you knew early on that your track went from point A to B, but
unlike you I wasn't given a map at birth!" Alyssa, "Chasing Amy"
http://hekla.rave.org/cookbook.html - my crossplatform dieet/recipe app
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Chris Jenkinson
In reply to this post by Robert S. Horning
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
> good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
> Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are trying
> to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try and keep
> them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by having this
> documentation available on Wikisource that we are making this content
> available to people in not just wealthy countries, but some of the
> poorer countries of the world including to people who don't necessarily
> even have internet access and through multiple languages.  There are
> many other points I'm sure you could come up with to really hit the
> point home, and I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
> preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
> must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
> to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
> of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.

Essjay (on English-language Wikipedia) isn't clergy, but he is a
professor of theology with a speciality in Catholicism. He's probably a
great person to get in touch with:
  --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay

Chris

--
Chris Jenkinson
[hidden email]

"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Tomasz Ganicz
2006/1/25, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]>:

> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
> > As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
> > good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
> > Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are trying
> > to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try and keep
> > them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by having this
> > documentation available on Wikisource that we are making this content
> > available to people in not just wealthy countries, but some of the
> > poorer countries of the world including to people who don't necessarily
> > even have internet access and through multiple languages.  There are
> > many other points I'm sure you could come up with to really hit the
> > point home, and I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
> > preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
> > must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
> > to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
> > of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.
>
> Essjay (on English-language Wikipedia) isn't clergy, but he is a
> professor of theology with a speciality in Catholicism. He's probably a
> great person to get in touch with:
>   --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
>

OK. I will contact him - but I guess if it make sence to send a letter
to the Vatican it should be done officialy by Foundation?

--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Robert S. Horning
Tomasz Ganicz wrote:

>2006/1/25, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]>:
>  
>
>>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
>>>preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
>>>must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
>>>to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
>>>of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.
>>>      
>>>
>>Essjay (on English-language Wikipedia) isn't clergy, but he is a
>>professor of theology with a speciality in Catholicism. He's probably a
>>great person to get in touch with:
>>  --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
>>    
>>
>
>OK. I will contact him - but I guess if it make sence to send a letter
>to the Vatican it should be done officialy by Foundation?
>
>--
>Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
>  
>
This doesn't have to be an "official" contact.  Simply write the letter
as a group of interested Wikimedia users who are interested in adding
original content that comes from official Vatican sources.  That just
keeps the legal hassles of writing a formal letter representing the
foundation and lets the Vatican know that this is a volunteer project as
well.

--
Robert Scott Horning



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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Tomasz Ganicz
2006/1/25, Robert Scott Horning <[hidden email]>:

> Tomasz Ganicz wrote:
>
> >2006/1/25, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >
> >>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
> >>>preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
> >>>must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
> >>>to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
> >>>of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Essjay (on English-language Wikipedia) isn't clergy, but he is a
> >>professor of theology with a speciality in Catholicism. He's probably a
> >>great person to get in touch with:
> >>  --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
> >>
> >>
> >
> >OK. I will contact him - but I guess if it make sence to send a letter
> >to the Vatican it should be done officialy by Foundation?
> >
> >--
> >Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> >http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
> >
> >
> This doesn't have to be an "official" contact.  Simply write the letter
> as a group of interested Wikimedia users who are interested in adding
> original content that comes from official Vatican sources.  That just
> keeps the legal hassles of writing a formal letter representing the
> foundation and lets the Vatican know that this is a volunteer project as
> well.
>

Well - I though we have legal department of Wikimedia Foundation for
some reasons...
What should we do if the answer from Vatican is "no" ?

--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Thomas R. Koll
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz

Am 25.01.2006 um 14:09 schrieb Tomasz Ganicz:

> What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
> asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
> all these documents?

Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we
obey anyways.
Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.

ciao, tom
--
http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32
http://verlag.tomk32.de/c/wrdigest




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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Robert S. Horning
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> Tomasz Ganicz wrote:
>
>> 2006/1/25, Chris Jenkinson
>> <[hidden email]>:
>>  
>>
>>> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>> I would recommend that you get some Roman Catholics,
>>>> preferably some Catholic clergy who are also active Wikimedians (there
>>>> must be a few somewhere) to help draft the letter.  The purpose here is
>>>> to try to use language styles that fits within the heirarchical culture
>>>> of the Church rather than catch phrases common to Wikimedians.
>>>>    
>>>
>>> Essjay (on English-language Wikipedia) isn't clergy, but he is a
>>> professor of theology with a speciality in Catholicism. He's probably a
>>> great person to get in touch with:
>>>  --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay
>>>  
>>
>>
>> OK. I will contact him - but I guess if it make sence to send a letter
>> to the Vatican it should be done officialy by Foundation?
>>
>> --
>> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>> http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
>>  
>>
> This doesn't have to be an "official" contact.  Simply write the letter
> as a group of interested Wikimedia users who are interested in adding
> original content that comes from official Vatican sources.  That just
> keeps the legal hassles of writing a formal letter representing the
> foundation and lets the Vatican know that this is a volunteer project as
> well.


If I remember well, Sabine, from itwiki, has been in contact with the
Vatican some time ago. Might be interesting to involve her. I put her in
copy of this mail.


Ant

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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Paweł Dembowski
In reply to this post by Thomas R. Koll
> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we
> obey anyways.
> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
> ciao, tom

Polish Wikisource has more.

--
Ausir
Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org

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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

valdelli@bluemail.ch
Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.

Please, read this:

http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.html

it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.

If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the Libreria
Editrice Vaticana.

Ilario

>-- Messaggio originale --
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>
>
>> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we
>> obey anyways.
>> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>> ciao, tom
>
>Polish Wikisource has more.
>
>--
>Ausir
>Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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RE: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Patrick, Brad
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
Babelfish says:

Any text that has for author the Pope or a whichever ministry of the
Sede Saint of hour in then e' protect from the copyright. No publishing
house potra' piu' to publish the text of a enciclica and a papal speech
without previo contracted to payment with the Publishing Bookcase
Vatican (Lev). To establish it e' a decree signed slid 31 May from the
Secretary of State Vatican, cardinal Sodano Angel.

What is a publishing house under Vatican law? Does this apply to
for-profit only?  Online works too?

Fascinating that his Holiness would lock up IP rights in the first year
of his Papacy.  Ugh.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff

Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.

Please, read this:

http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.
html

it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.

If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the
Libreria Editrice Vaticana.

Ilario

>-- Messaggio originale --
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
><[hidden email]>
>
>
>> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we obey

>> anyways.
>> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>> ciao, tom
>
>Polish Wikisource has more.
>
>--
>Ausir
>Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

valdelli@bluemail.ch
In reply to this post by valdelli@bluemail.ch
Sorry I made a mistake:

If someone needs to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the Libreria
Editrice Vaticana "in the future".

Ilario


>-- Messaggio originale --
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:02:11 +0100
>From: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>
>
>Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.
>
>Please, read this:
>
>http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.html
>
>it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.
>
>If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the Libreria
>Editrice Vaticana.
>
>Ilario
>
>>-- Messaggio originale --
>>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>>> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we
>>> obey anyways.
>>> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>>> ciao, tom
>>
>>Polish Wikisource has more.
>>
>>--
>>Ausir
>>Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
>>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
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RE: Copyright of Vatican stuff

valdelli@bluemail.ch
In reply to this post by Patrick, Brad
"Any text which has for author the Pope or a whichever ministry of the Vatican
from now on is protected by copyright. No publisher will can publish the
text of  encyclical or of papal speech without former payment to Libreria
Editrice Vaticana (LEV). This is established by a decree signed by cardinal
Angelo Sodano, Secretay of Vatican, the last 31 may."

The word of "publisher" is "casa editrice" in italian, I think that this
word means "all" publisher because only LEV (which is a publisher house)
has the right to publish Vatican's documents.

Ilario

>
>
>Babelfish says:
>
>Any text that has for author the Pope or a whichever ministry of the
>Sede Saint of hour in then e' protect from the copyright. No publishing
>house potra' piu' to publish the text of a enciclica and a papal speech
>without previo contracted to payment with the Publishing Bookcase
>Vatican (Lev). To establish it e' a decree signed slid 31 May from the
>Secretary of State Vatican, cardinal Sodano Angel.
>
>What is a publishing house under Vatican law? Does this apply to
>for-profit only?  Online works too?
>
>Fascinating that his Holiness would lock up IP rights in the first year
>of his Papacy.  Ugh.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>[hidden email]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:02 PM
>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>
>Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.
>
>Please, read this:
>
>http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.
>html
>
>it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.
>
>If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the
>Libreria Editrice Vaticana.
>
>Ilario
>
>>-- Messaggio originale --
>>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>><[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>>> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we obey
>
>>> anyways.
>>> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>>> ciao, tom
>>
>>Polish Wikisource has more.
>>
>>--
>>Ausir
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>>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>>
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RE: Copyright of Vatican stuff

valdelli@bluemail.ch
Libreria Editrice Vaticana (LEV) means "Vatican Bookshop Publisher" and it's
the official publisher of Vatican (it publish already for example the Official
Catechism of Catholic Church).

Ilario


>-- Messaggio originale --
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:19:39 +0100
>From: [hidden email]
>Subject: RE: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>
>
>"Any text which has for author the Pope or a whichever ministry of the Vatican
>from now on is protected by copyright. No publisher will can publish the
>text of  encyclical or of papal speech without former payment to Libreria
>Editrice Vaticana (LEV). This is established by a decree signed by cardinal
>Angelo Sodano, Secretay of Vatican, the last 31 may."
>
>The word of "publisher" is "casa editrice" in italian, I think that this
>word means "all" publisher because only LEV (which is a publisher house)
>has the right to publish Vatican's documents.
>
>Ilario
>
>>
>>
>>Babelfish says:
>>
>>Any text that has for author the Pope or a whichever ministry of the
>>Sede Saint of hour in then e' protect from the copyright. No publishing
>>house potra' piu' to publish the text of a enciclica and a papal speech
>>without previo contracted to payment with the Publishing Bookcase
>>Vatican (Lev). To establish it e' a decree signed slid 31 May from the
>>Secretary of State Vatican, cardinal Sodano Angel.
>>
>>What is a publishing house under Vatican law? Does this apply to
>>for-profit only?  Online works too?
>>
>>Fascinating that his Holiness would lock up IP rights in the first year
>>of his Papacy.  Ugh.
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [hidden email]
>>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>>[hidden email]
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:02 PM
>>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>>
>>Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.
>>
>>Please, read this:
>>
>>http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.
>>html
>>
>>it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.
>>
>>If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the
>>Libreria Editrice Vaticana.
>>
>>Ilario
>>
>>>-- Messaggio originale --
>>>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>>>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>>>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>>>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>>><[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>>>> quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we obey
>>
>>>> anyways.
>>>> Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>>>> ciao, tom
>>>
>>>Polish Wikisource has more.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Ausir
>>>Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
>>>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in
>this
>>transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written
to

>>be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the
>purpose
>>of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the Internal
>>Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to support the
>>promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax transaction(s)
>>or matter(s) addressed in this message.
>>
>>If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose
>>of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional
>>Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet
>>those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated
time

>>and additional fees involved.
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>>Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are
>private
>>communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A., and may
>>contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely for the
>>intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
>>is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by replying
>>to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system.
>>Thank you.
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by valdelli@bluemail.ch
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html

here it says

The edict covers Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, which is to be
issued this week amid huge international interest. The edict is
retroactive, covering not only the writings of the present pontiff — as
Pope and as cardinal — but also those of his predecessors over the past
50 years. It therefore includes anything written by John Paul II, John
Paul I, Paul VI and John XXIII.


Is it again incorrect press report ?


ant


[hidden email] wrote:

> Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.
>
> Please, read this:
>
> http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.html
>
> it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.
>
> If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the Libreria
> Editrice Vaticana.
>
> Ilario
>
>
>>-- Messaggio originale --
>>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:49:45 +0100
>>From: Pawe? Dembowski <[hidden email]>
>>To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Copyright of Vatican stuff
>>Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>>Honestly? Ignore it. The Vatican can't make laws outside it's few
>>>quadratmeters and outside there are other copyright laws that we
>>>obey anyways.
>>>Of those on wikisource only Pacem in Terris is younger than 50 years.
>>>ciao, tom
>>
>>Polish Wikisource has more.
>>
>>--
>>Ausir
>>Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
>>http://pl.wikipedia.org
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Robert S. Horning
Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> Tomasz Ganicz wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
>> Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
>> signed by Pope. According to:
>>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
>>
>> and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
>> Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.
>>
>> We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:
>>
>> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia
>>
>> What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
>> asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
>> all these documents?
>>
>> --
>> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>> http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
>>  
>>
> As an independent soverign nation, the Vatican is free to do many
> things in regard to copyright law that would normally not be
> acceptable in most other countries, including retroactive copyright
> and other weird issues as well.  The problem here is to see what sort
> of copyright enforcement would generally be enforced through
> international treaties (is the Vatican a member of the international
> copyright convention?) and general common sense on things like this.  
> Common sense would seem to indicate that the older encyclicals from
> the 19th Century and earlier would be reasonable to keep on
> Wikisource, although I could see the Vatican even trying to assert
> copyright on that as well.
>
> As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
> good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
> Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are
> trying to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try
> and keep them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by
> having this documentation available on Wikisource that we are making
> this content available to people in not just wealthy countries, but
> some of the poorer countries of the world including to people who
> don't necessarily even have internet access and through multiple
> languages.  There are many other points I'm sure you could come up
> with to really hit the point home, and I would recommend that you get
> some Roman Catholics, preferably some Catholic clergy who are also
> active Wikimedians (there must be a few somewhere) to help draft the
> letter.  The purpose here is to try to use language styles that fits
> within the heirarchical culture of the Church rather than catch
> phrases common to Wikimedians.
>
> It is likely that the Vatican is simply going to reply that they have
> their own website, and internet users can download the content from
> there instead if they really want to get network access to the
> documents.  It is worth a try to ask somebody from the Vatican however.
>


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Re: Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Sabine Cretella
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
First of all: Thank you Anthere for having copied the mail to me
privately - when I have plenty of work, the lists I receive sometimes
are not read.

What Ilario writes is right considering the Italian link he gave - there
is nothing that states "retroactive". And then thre's the link from
Anthere of the Times ... and that seems to be retroactive, but I suppose
they cannot apply it to pubblications that were done before. So if the
contents in wikibooks was there before that changes they may be there
... or not?

And I am not sure if the times is right/if Ansa reported only a part of
it. It would make sense to write the Vatican and ask ... and of course
refer to the fact that not allowing for the publication (at least on
Internet) they preclude many people from reading the Pope's writings and
that it does not at all help to spread the word, but that it prevents it
from being spread and that basically is against everything written in
the Bible. This means they give more space to whatever "strange"
organisation and will have less possibilities to communicate with people
showing additionally that maybe religion is more about business than
about "credo" ... hmmm ...

Isn't it funny that the Pope is from the city where I come from?

When I contacted the Radio Vaticana for the Cristmas wishes of Giovanni
Paolo II they immediately gave me the OK and sent me the file. Through a
priest who is also member of the Italian discussion group I got
addresses for terminology, but there is that problem that this
terminology is not wanted to be included in the actual Wiktionary since
it does not allow to underline that it is "terminology of the Roman
Catholic Church" we are dealing with and that therefore no changes
should apply. Well WiktionaryZ will help since there we can assure this
and people can edit and add further information as well. An example on
how this works is the GEMET data
(http://epov.org/wd-gemet/index.php/Main_Page) - also that glossary is
an official one that shows which terminology is to be used. And there
are "fixed glossaries and thesauri" that should not be changed
indeliberately, but there we should have proposals for changes and
additions where one can see "that is original data and that are the
changes/additions" and "that is accepted" etc.

So I know the Vatican institutions (besides one of the priests here in
Maiori) as a group of helpful people - we should simply ask them to get
things right.

My 2 cts.

Best, Sabine

Anthere wrote:

> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
>
> here it says
>
> The edict covers Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, which is to be
> issued this week amid huge international interest. The edict is
> retroactive, covering not only the writings of the present pontiff —
> as Pope and as cardinal — but also those of his predecessors over the
> past 50 years. It therefore includes anything written by John Paul II,
> John Paul I, Paul VI and John XXIII.
>
>
> Is it again incorrect press report ?
>
>
> ant
>
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Sorry, the copyright will be applied only to NEW Vatican's documents.
>>
>> Please, read this:
>>
>> http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/topnews/news/2006-01-22_2439593.html 
>>
>>
>> it's in italian but it's the more importante italian information bureau.
>>
>> If someone need to bring out Vatican's documents he must contact the
>> Libreria
>> Editrice Vaticana.
>>
>> Ilario
>


       

       
               
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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
Tomasz Ganicz wrote:

>Hello,
>
>There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
>Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
>signed by Pope. According to:
>
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
>
>and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
>Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.
>
>We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:
>
>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals
>
>and
>
>http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia
>
>What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
>asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
>all these documents?
>
The best thing is not to panic or send hurried letters until you have a
better idea of what's going on.  Sending letters before that will only
create more confusion.  The Vatican has been a party to the Berne
Convention since 1935, so it does have a right to copyright protection.  
They also refer to 50 years, so they do not appear to be using the 70
year extension adopted by the EU.  No mention is made of Pius XII.  The
range of things that they appear to be covering suggests that they may
be treating the encyclicals as works for hire, (servus servorum dei).

It's encouraging that the Vatican is asking for a levy of 3 to 5 percent
of the cover price to reproduce material, and that this would increase
to 15% in the case of infringement.  I think we should be able to afford
that. :-)

I think that they are most pissed-off with the Milan publisher that
scooped the forthcoming encyclical.  Let's see what the Italians do with
this before we take very much action.

Ec



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Re: Copyright of Vatican stuff

Essjay
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Thanks for thinking of me guys, but this one is way over my head. True, my
specialty is canon law, but there is a big difference between canon law and
Vatican law; assuming they plan to enforce it, the Vatican isn't going to be
issuing excommunications for violation of the new rules, it's going to be
suing. What you need is a copyright attorney (Soufron?), not a canon lawyer.
That said, if anyone gets excommunicated over it, I'm your man.

By the way, if we're worried about the implications of the Vatican's rules
under US law (and we usually hear "it's US law that matters, since the
servers are in the US") the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic
Bishops) would be a good place to contact; they should be able to offer
guidance. The Office of the General Counsel can be reached at
[hidden email] by phone/mail at (202)
541-3000 / Office of the General Counsel, 3211 4th Street N.E., Washington
DC 20017-1194.

If there is anything else I can do, let me know.

Essjay


On 1/25/06, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
> > Tomasz Ganicz wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> There is a problem of potential copyright violation of putting to the
> >> Wikisources and other Wikimedia projects encyclis and other documents
> >> signed by Pope. According to:
> >>
> >> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2005615,00.html
> >>
> >> and several other newspapers all these documents are copyrighted, and
> >> Vatical officials are currently trying impose strict copyright.
> >>
> >> We have quite a lot of this stuff in Wikisources. See for example:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_Encyclicals
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kategoria:Religia
> >>
> >> What should we do with this? Send a formal letter to the Vatican,
> >> asking for GFDL or PD licence agreement - or we should simply delete
> >> all these documents?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> >> http://www.ceti.pl/kganicz/poli/kontakt.html
> >>
> >>
> > As an independent soverign nation, the Vatican is free to do many
> > things in regard to copyright law that would normally not be
> > acceptable in most other countries, including retroactive copyright
> > and other weird issues as well.  The problem here is to see what sort
> > of copyright enforcement would generally be enforced through
> > international treaties (is the Vatican a member of the international
> > copyright convention?) and general common sense on things like this.
> > Common sense would seem to indicate that the older encyclicals from
> > the 19th Century and earlier would be reasonable to keep on
> > Wikisource, although I could see the Vatican even trying to assert
> > copyright on that as well.
> >
> > As far as sending a letter to the Vatican, I think it would be a very
> > good idea, but try to really do a good job of explaining the goals of
> > Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, and point out how we are
> > trying to make faithful reproductions of these documents and to try
> > and keep them in context as well.  In addition, point out that by
> > having this documentation available on Wikisource that we are making
> > this content available to people in not just wealthy countries, but
> > some of the poorer countries of the world including to people who
> > don't necessarily even have internet access and through multiple
> > languages.  There are many other points I'm sure you could come up
> > with to really hit the point home, and I would recommend that you get
> > some Roman Catholics, preferably some Catholic clergy who are also
> > active Wikimedians (there must be a few somewhere) to help draft the
> > letter.  The purpose here is to try to use language styles that fits
> > within the heirarchical culture of the Church rather than catch
> > phrases common to Wikimedians.
> >
> > It is likely that the Vatican is simply going to reply that they have
> > their own website, and internet users can download the content from
> > there instead if they really want to get network access to the
> > documents.  It is worth a try to ask somebody from the Vatican however.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



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-----
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