Copyright of pictures from 1870

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Copyright of pictures from 1870

Deryck Chan-2
I am recently engaged in a conversation with [[User:Kimberlyblaker]], who uploaded a fair amount of old, 19th century pictures onto Commons, including the album of places in Cambridge (see below) which is of particular interest to me.

What stumbled me was the copyright status of these images - are they in the public domain? If they aren't, is it due to publication right, and is Kimberly Blaker (& co.) the rightful copyright holder of them?

Deryck

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: New Boston Fine and Rare Books <[hidden email]>
Date: 8 February 2012 17:06
Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
To: Deryck Chan <[hidden email]>


Dear Deryck,
Thanks again, for the additional identification and for inviting assistance through twitter.
 
As to the copyright, I truly appreciate your help with this. Here is what I can tell you, so that you can better assess the copyright. I have an original 19th century album with original 19th albumen prints of these images. The album does not appear to have ever been published. There is no title (except for a paper label that errantly labeled it as “Oxford”. There is no title page, copyright page, author, publisher, photographer, anything whatsoever inside. The only identification is a late 20th century bookplate on which it was handwritten “Oxford University, pictures taken for William Winfield, circa middle 19th century, given to Robert Winfield early 1970s. This album formerly owned by William Winfield.” Obviously the “Oxford” note is incorrect. I assume the other details are probably correct. It is probably a family heirloom that had been handed down.
 
I have searched extensively, and cannot locate any of these identical images online. So I have to assume they may have never been reproduced and was likely a collection an early photographer did for himself or as a gift for a friend.
 
With this in mind, aside from the photographs being compiled in a photo album, it seems that it would still fall under a previously unpublished work. I own the original work, have photographed the work, and have now published the work online via my own website. So I think, I am now the official copyright holder? I’m not an expert in copyright law but have some general understanding of it. You are probably better versed in this?
 
Sincerely,

Kimberly Blaker, President
New Boston Fine and Rare Books
<a href="tel:520-395-1363" value="+15203951363" target="_blank">520-395-1363

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valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!

We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.

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win a new leather bound Easton Press book.

Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.

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newsletter for future updates.

 
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
 
Dear Ms Blaker,

Also identified: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pepys_Library_c1870.jpg
This one is Pepys Library in Magdalene College. I've also posted links to the Wikimedia Commons pictures from Twitter asking others in Cambridge University to help identify the remaining unidentified locations.

As for the copyright notice, I think I previously made the mistake of thinking the photos came from a collection published in the 1870s, which would be automatically out of copyright. However, I have now realised that the pictures are actually from a previously unpublished private collection, which means as copy-holder and publisher your company should enjoy 25 years of publication right... wait it's a previously unpublished British work uncovered in the United States... argh! (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Hirtle_chart)

Deryck

On 8 February 2012 14:42, New Boston Fine and Rare Books <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Deryck,
 
Thank you for identifying these images! I’ve added this information to my website.
 
If only I could determine the original photographer. Many of the originals are contact prints, but they had been trimmed, so identifying information is missing. Though when scanned and enlarged, I could see hand etched in the plate of the Master’s Garden was “J. Murray”, I believe. Though it’s hard to say if that’s the actual photographer as there was other random etching in the plate as well. If you have any idea where I might discover the photographer, possibly through Cambridge’s collections, etc., please let me know.
 
Best,

Kimberly Blaker, President
New Boston Fine and Rare Books
<a href="tel:520-395-1363" value="+15203951363" target="_blank">520-395-1363

Like us on Facebook and find a
valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!

We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.

Enter our FREE drawing for a chance to
win a new leather bound Easton Press book.

Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.

And be sure to subscribe to our
newsletter for future updates.

 
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 2:47 AM
Subject: Unidentified locations
 
Hello,

I am a current undergraduate of Cambridge University, and came here after seeing the uploads your team has made onto Wikimedia Commons.

I'm writing to inform you the locations of the two unidentified pictures:

http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/57 cambridge university.jpg
Gatehouse of St. John's College, Cambridge

http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/58 cambridge university.jpg
Chapel of Magdalene College, Cambridge

I also noticed that the author's copyright of the pictures have expired, and will .update the copyright licences of the pictures accordingly.

Regards,
Deryck Chan
 


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Re: Copyright of pictures from 1870

Thomas Dalton
http://www.dacs.org.uk/pdfs/factsheet_14.pdf

According to that fact sheet, since the photos were taken before 1
June 1957, the copyright expired 50 years after the photos were taken.
If the author (most likely the photographer, although not necessarily)
was still alive in 1925, the copyright might have revived in 1995 and
will last until life+70, but unless the author survived for 72 years
after taking the photo that will have expired too.

It is possible there is a publication right to 25 years of copyright,
I haven't been able to find anything definite. This FAQ explains the
rules for unpublished works, but explicitly excludes photographs:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-duration/c-duration-faq/c-duration-faq-unpublished.htm


On 9 February 2012 17:49, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am recently engaged in a conversation with [[User:Kimberlyblaker]], who
> uploaded a fair amount of old, 19th century pictures onto Commons, including
> the album of places in Cambridge (see below) which is of particular interest
> to me.
>
> What stumbled me was the copyright status of these images - are they in the
> public domain? If they aren't, is it due to publication right, and is
> Kimberly Blaker (& co.) the rightful copyright holder of them?
>
> Deryck
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: New Boston Fine and Rare Books <[hidden email]>
> Date: 8 February 2012 17:06
> Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
> To: Deryck Chan <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Dear Deryck,
> Thanks again, for the additional identification and for inviting assistance
> through twitter.
>
> As to the copyright, I truly appreciate your help with this. Here is what I
> can tell you, so that you can better assess the copyright. I have an
> original 19th century album with original 19th albumen prints of these
> images. The album does not appear to have ever been published. There is no
> title (except for a paper label that errantly labeled it as “Oxford”. There
> is no title page, copyright page, author, publisher, photographer, anything
> whatsoever inside. The only identification is a late 20th century bookplate
> on which it was handwritten “Oxford University, pictures taken for William
> Winfield, circa middle 19th century, given to Robert Winfield early 1970s.
> This album formerly owned by William Winfield.” Obviously the “Oxford” note
> is incorrect. I assume the other details are probably correct. It is
> probably a family heirloom that had been handed down.
>
> I have searched extensively, and cannot locate any of these identical images
> online. So I have to assume they may have never been reproduced and was
> likely a collection an early photographer did for himself or as a gift for a
> friend.
>
> With this in mind, aside from the photographs being compiled in a photo
> album, it seems that it would still fall under a previously unpublished
> work. I own the original work, have photographed the work, and have now
> published the work online via my own website. So I think, I am now the
> official copyright holder? I’m not an expert in copyright law but have some
> general understanding of it. You are probably better versed in this?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kimberly Blaker, President
> New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> 520-395-1363
>
> Like us on Facebook and find a
> valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!
>
> We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.
>
> Enter our FREE drawing for a chance to win a new leather bound Easton Press
> book.
>
> Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.
>
> And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter for future updates.
>
>
> From: Deryck Chan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 9:11 AM
> To: New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
>
> Dear Ms Blaker,
>
> Also identified:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pepys_Library_c1870.jpg
> This one is Pepys Library in Magdalene College. I've also posted links to
> the Wikimedia Commons pictures from Twitter asking others in Cambridge
> University to help identify the remaining unidentified locations.
>
> As for the copyright notice, I think I previously made the mistake of
> thinking the photos came from a collection published in the 1870s, which
> would be automatically out of copyright. However, I have now realised that
> the pictures are actually from a previously unpublished private collection,
> which means as copy-holder and publisher your company should enjoy 25 years
> of publication right... wait it's a previously unpublished British work
> uncovered in the United States... argh!
> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Hirtle_chart)
>
> Deryck
>
> On 8 February 2012 14:42, New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Deryck,
>>
>> Thank you for identifying these images! I’ve added this information to my
>> website.
>>
>> If only I could determine the original photographer. Many of the originals
>> are contact prints, but they had been trimmed, so identifying information is
>> missing. Though when scanned and enlarged, I could see hand etched in the
>> plate of the Master’s Garden was “J. Murray”, I believe. Though it’s hard to
>> say if that’s the actual photographer as there was other random etching in
>> the plate as well. If you have any idea where I might discover the
>> photographer, possibly through Cambridge’s collections, etc., please let me
>> know.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Kimberly Blaker, President
>> New Boston Fine and Rare Books
>> 520-395-1363
>>
>> Like us on Facebook and find a valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!
>>
>> We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.
>>
>> Enter our FREE drawing for a chance to win a new leather bound Easton
>> Press book.
>>
>> Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.
>>
>> And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter for future updates.
>>
>>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 2:47 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Unidentified locations
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am a current undergraduate of Cambridge University, and came here after
>> seeing the uploads your team has made onto Wikimedia Commons.
>>
>> I'm writing to inform you the locations of the two unidentified pictures:
>>
>> http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/57
>> cambridge university.jpg
>> Gatehouse of St. John's College, Cambridge
>>
>> http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/58
>> cambridge university.jpg
>> Chapel of Magdalene College, Cambridge
>>
>> I also noticed that the author's copyright of the pictures have expired,
>> and will .update the copyright licences of the pictures accordingly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Deryck Chan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Copyright of pictures from 1870

michael west-3
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan-2
On 9 February 2012 17:49, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am recently engaged in a conversation with [[User:Kimberlyblaker]], who
> uploaded a fair amount of old, 19th century pictures onto Commons, including
> the album of places in Cambridge (see below) which is of particular interest
> to me.
>
> What stumbled me was the copyright status of these images - are they in the
> public domain? If they aren't, is it due to publication right, and is
> Kimberly Blaker (& co.) the rightful copyright holder of them?
>
> Deryck
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: New Boston Fine and Rare Books <[hidden email]>
> Date: 8 February 2012 17:06
> Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
> To: Deryck Chan <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Dear Deryck,
> Thanks again, for the additional identification and for inviting assistance
> through twitter.
>
> As to the copyright, I truly appreciate your help with this. Here is what I
> can tell you, so that you can better assess the copyright. I have an
> original 19th century album with original 19th albumen prints of these
> images. The album does not appear to have ever been published. There is no
> title (except for a paper label that errantly labeled it as “Oxford”. There
> is no title page, copyright page, author, publisher, photographer, anything
> whatsoever inside. The only identification is a late 20th century bookplate
> on which it was handwritten “Oxford University, pictures taken for William
> Winfield, circa middle 19th century, given to Robert Winfield early 1970s.
> This album formerly owned by William Winfield.” Obviously the “Oxford” note
> is incorrect. I assume the other details are probably correct. It is
> probably a family heirloom that had been handed down.
>
> I have searched extensively, and cannot locate any of these identical images
> online. So I have to assume they may have never been reproduced and was
> likely a collection an early photographer did for himself or as a gift for a
> friend.
>
> With this in mind, aside from the photographs being compiled in a photo
> album, it seems that it would still fall under a previously unpublished
> work. I own the original work, have photographed the work, and have now
> published the work online via my own website. So I think, I am now the
> official copyright holder? I’m not an expert in copyright law but have some
> general understanding of it. You are probably better versed in this?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kimberly Blaker, President
> New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> 520-395-1363
>
> Like us on Facebook and find a
> valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!
>
> We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.
>
> Enter our FREE drawing for a chance to win a new leather bound Easton Press
> book.
>
> Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.
>
> And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter for future updates.
>
>
> From: Deryck Chan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 9:11 AM
> To: New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> Subject: Re: Unidentified locations
>
> Dear Ms Blaker,
>
> Also identified:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pepys_Library_c1870.jpg
> This one is Pepys Library in Magdalene College. I've also posted links to
> the Wikimedia Commons pictures from Twitter asking others in Cambridge
> University to help identify the remaining unidentified locations.
>
> As for the copyright notice, I think I previously made the mistake of
> thinking the photos came from a collection published in the 1870s, which
> would be automatically out of copyright. However, I have now realised that
> the pictures are actually from a previously unpublished private collection,
> which means as copy-holder and publisher your company should enjoy 25 years
> of publication right... wait it's a previously unpublished British work
> uncovered in the United States... argh!
> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Hirtle_chart)
>
> Deryck
>
> On 8 February 2012 14:42, New Boston Fine and Rare Books
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Deryck,
>>
>> Thank you for identifying these images! I’ve added this information to my
>> website.
>>
>> If only I could determine the original photographer. Many of the originals
>> are contact prints, but they had been trimmed, so identifying information is
>> missing. Though when scanned and enlarged, I could see hand etched in the
>> plate of the Master’s Garden was “J. Murray”, I believe. Though it’s hard to
>> say if that’s the actual photographer as there was other random etching in
>> the plate as well. If you have any idea where I might discover the
>> photographer, possibly through Cambridge’s collections, etc., please let me
>> know.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Kimberly Blaker, President
>> New Boston Fine and Rare Books
>> 520-395-1363
>>
>> Like us on Facebook and find a valuable coupon offer on our Welcome tab!
>>
>> We're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, MySpace, and Tumblr.
>>
>> Enter our FREE drawing for a chance to win a new leather bound Easton
>> Press book.
>>
>> Take 19th century photographic tour of Cambridge University.
>>
>> And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter for future updates.
>>
>>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 2:47 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Unidentified locations
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am a current undergraduate of Cambridge University, and came here after
>> seeing the uploads your team has made onto Wikimedia Commons.
>>
>> I'm writing to inform you the locations of the two unidentified pictures:
>>
>> http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/57
>> cambridge university.jpg
>> Gatehouse of St. John's College, Cambridge
>>
>> http://www.newbostonfineandrarebooks.com/home//Cambridge University/58
>> cambridge university.jpg
>> Chapel of Magdalene College, Cambridge
>>
>> I also noticed that the author's copyright of the pictures have expired,
>> and will .update the copyright licences of the pictures accordingly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Deryck Chan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>

The original photographer always holds copyright, unless they were
produced on behalf of a company which is still liquid or a company who
has bought the rights to copyright. Otherwise, if the pictures were
produced before 1942 and no legal assignment has occured it would be
safe to say they are in the public domain.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Copyright of pictures from 1870

Deryck Chan-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan-2
Any update to this?
Deryck

2012/2/9 Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
On 9 February 2012 17:49, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am recently engaged in a conversation with [[User:Kimberlyblaker]], who
> uploaded a fair amount of old, 19th century pictures onto Commons, including
> the album of places in Cambridge (see below) which is of particular interest
> to me.
>
> What stumbled me was the copyright status of these images - are they in the
> public domain? If they aren't, is it due to publication right, and is
> Kimberly Blaker (& co.) the rightful copyright holder of them?

If they were previously unpublished - which looks likely, if this is a
personal photo album of commissioned photographs - then yes, it sounds
plausible. I'll do a little more research on this this evening and let
you know :-)


--
- Andrew Gray
 [hidden email]


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Copyright of pictures from 1870

Harry Burt
Incidentally, since I don't think anyone mentioned it, it's my understanding that you can't get UK publication rights if you first published it in the U.S., only U.S. publication rights. [1] So that is the best thing to look into regarding publication rights. I think the assumption of copyright lapse is a good one.

Admittedly, the whole thing makes my head hurt!

--
Harry (User:Jarry1250)

[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2967/regulation/17/made "4) A work qualifies for publication right protection only if—(a)first publication is in the European Economic Area..."

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any update to this?
Deryck

2012/2/9 Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
On 9 February 2012 17:49, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am recently engaged in a conversation with [[User:Kimberlyblaker]], who
> uploaded a fair amount of old, 19th century pictures onto Commons, including
> the album of places in Cambridge (see below) which is of particular interest
> to me.
>
> What stumbled me was the copyright status of these images - are they in the
> public domain? If they aren't, is it due to publication right, and is
> Kimberly Blaker (& co.) the rightful copyright holder of them?

If they were previously unpublished - which looks likely, if this is a
personal photo album of commissioned photographs - then yes, it sounds
plausible. I'll do a little more research on this this evening and let
you know :-)


--
- Andrew Gray
 [hidden email]


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org