Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

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Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Nador Tussna
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,

I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted
to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*

The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and ISO
639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3
code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.

The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language
group".

The fact is: it is both.

The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have
the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".

But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language
(in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and
is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering
it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).

So my questions are:

-How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project
and approve it?

-What about the option of "macro-language"?

For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic
language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
"macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects
(Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own ISO
639-3 language code.


There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber language
on Facebook and elsewhere.

I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
project on a regular basis.

The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber

The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.

I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
identically available in two alphabets.

This is the link for the Wp/ber project:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut

In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
institutes):

http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf

It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
terminology.

Best regards,

Moubarik Belkasim
 <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in
Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume
all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16

The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.

The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are
for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically
it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is
taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
being a constructed language quite a bit.

It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for
this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for
this.
Thanks,
       Gerard


On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
>
> I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I wanted
> to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
>
> The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and
> ISO
> 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3
> code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
>
> The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a language
> group".
>
> The fact is: it is both.
>
> The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
> dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have
> the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
>
> But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber language
> (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution and
> is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
> taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering
> it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
>
> So my questions are:
>
> -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project
> and approve it?
>
> -What about the option of "macro-language"?
>
> For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic
> language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects
> (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own ISO
> 639-3 language code.
>
>
> There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber language
> on Facebook and elsewhere.
>
> I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> project on a regular basis.
>
> The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
>
> The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and the
> Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
>
> I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish Wikipedia
> or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
> identically available in two alphabets.
>
> This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
>
> http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
>
> In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard pan-Berber
> specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> institutes):
>
> http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
>
> It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> terminology.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Moubarik Belkasim
>  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Nador Tussna
Hoi Gerard,

Thanks a lot for your quick reply.

Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
North African and Saharan countries.

But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
Mali...).

I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
development.

In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.

An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
created by the governments.

This is not some Esperanto-type of language.

Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.

In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and
variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.

Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And
those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.

A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of
time to get the code.

So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.

There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries,
government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
programs).

I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
Wp/ber project.

Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send
the request and the documentation?

Thanks a lot.

Best regards,

Moubarik Belkasim



On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hoi,
> There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
> consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in
> Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume
> all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
>
> The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not
> differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
>
> The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits are
> for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically
> it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language is
> taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
> being a constructed language quite a bit.
>
> It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for
> this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for
> this.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard
>
>
> On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> >
> > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> wanted
> > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> >
> > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2 and
> > ISO
> > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO 639-3
> > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> >
> > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> language
> > group".
> >
> > The fact is: it is both.
> >
> > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
> > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they have
> > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> >
> > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> language
> > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution
> and
> > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
> > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for considering
> > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> >
> > So my questions are:
> >
> > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber project
> > and approve it?
> >
> > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> >
> > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard Arabic
> > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects
> > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own
> ISO
> > 639-3 language code.
> >
> >
> > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> language
> > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> >
> > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> > project on a regular basis.
> >
> > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> >
> > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and
> the
> > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> >
> > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> Wikipedia
> > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
> > identically available in two alphabets.
> >
> > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> >
> > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> >
> > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> pan-Berber
> > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > institutes):
> >
> > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> >
> > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > terminology.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Moubarik Belkasim
> >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.

The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).

As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
situation).
thanks,
     Gerard



On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi Gerard,
>
> Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
>
> Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> North African and Saharan countries.
>
> But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> Mali...).
>
> I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
> Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
> development.
>
> In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
> from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
> Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved there.
>
> An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
> created by the governments.
>
> This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
>
> Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
> and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
> which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
> worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
>
> In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms and
> variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
>
> Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is the
> obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And
> those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
>
> A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about all
> this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of
> time to get the code.
>
> So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
>
> There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries,
> government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc. And
> there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria broadcasting
> a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> programs).
>
> I am very sure that when the language committee examines the documentation,
> they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
> Wp/ber project.
>
> Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I send
> the request and the documentation?
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Moubarik Belkasim
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
> > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken in
> > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s) subsume
> > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> >
> > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does not
> > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> >
> > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
> are
> > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but typically
> > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
> is
> > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
> > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> >
> > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code for
> > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support for
> > this.
> > Thanks,
> >       Gerard
> >
> >
> > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> > wanted
> > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> > >
> > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
> and
> > > ISO
> > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
> 639-3
> > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> > language
> > > group".
> > >
> > > The fact is: it is both.
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for the
> > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
> have
> > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> > >
> > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> > language
> > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan constitution
> > and
> > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and is
> > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> considering
> > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> > >
> > > So my questions are:
> > >
> > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> project
> > > and approve it?
> > >
> > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> > >
> > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
> Arabic
> > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic dialects
> > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its own
> > ISO
> > > 639-3 language code.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> > language
> > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> > >
> > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> > > project on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> > >
> > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria and
> > the
> > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> > >
> > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> > Wikipedia
> > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
> > > identically available in two alphabets.
> > >
> > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> > >
> > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> > >
> > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> > pan-Berber
> > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > > institutes):
> > >
> > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> > >
> > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > > terminology.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

aksel afersig
First, excuse my intrusion into this.

I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
addresses this
issue in its entirety.

In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.

Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.

Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
participate.

Cordially.

2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
>
> The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
> will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
> documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
>
> As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely
> not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
> situation).
> thanks,
>     Gerard
>
>
>
> On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hoi Gerard,
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
> >
> > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> > North African and Saharan countries.
> >
> > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> > Mali...).
> >
> > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
> > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
> > development.
> >
> > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
> > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
> > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
> there.
> >
> > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
> > created by the governments.
> >
> > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
> >
> > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
> > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
> > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
> > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
> >
> > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
> and
> > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
> >
> > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
> the
> > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy. And
> > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
> >
> > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
> all
> > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot of
> > time to get the code.
> >
> > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
> >
> > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries,
> > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> > standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
> And
> > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
> broadcasting
> > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> > programs).
> >
> > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
> documentation,
> > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
> > Wp/ber project.
> >
> > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
> send
> > the request and the documentation?
> >
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Moubarik Belkasim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
> > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
> in
> > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
> subsume
> > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> > >
> > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
> not
> > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> > >
> > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
> > are
> > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
> typically
> > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
> > is
> > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
> > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> > >
> > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
> for
> > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
> for
> > > this.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       Gerard
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> > > wanted
> > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> > > >
> > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
> > and
> > > > ISO
> > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
> > 639-3
> > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> > > >
> > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> > > language
> > > > group".
> > > >
> > > > The fact is: it is both.
> > > >
> > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
> the
> > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
> > have
> > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> > > >
> > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> > > language
> > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
> constitution
> > > and
> > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
> is
> > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> > considering
> > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> > > >
> > > > So my questions are:
> > > >
> > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> > project
> > > > and approve it?
> > > >
> > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> > > >
> > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
> > Arabic
> > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
> dialects
> > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
> own
> > > ISO
> > > > 639-3 language code.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> > > language
> > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> > > > project on a regular basis.
> > > >
> > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> > > >
> > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
> and
> > > the
> > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> > > >
> > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically and
> > > > identically available in two alphabets.
> > > >
> > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> > > >
> > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> > > >
> > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> > > pan-Berber
> > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > > > institutes):
> > > >
> > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> > > >
> > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > > > terminology.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > > >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward,
we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This
means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it
in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
>
> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
> addresses this
> issue in its entirety.
>
> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
>
> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
> years.
>
> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
> participate.
>
> Cordially.
>
> 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hoi,
> > When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
> >
> > The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
> material
> > will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> > Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> > ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> > important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
> > documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
> >
> > As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
> likely
> > not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
> > situation).
> > thanks,
> >     Gerard
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi Gerard,
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
> > >
> > > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
> > > North African and Saharan countries.
> > >
> > > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> > > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
> > > Mali...).
> > >
> > > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
> all
> > > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
> > > development.
> > >
> > > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
> > > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
> > > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
> > there.
> > >
> > > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
> > > created by the governments.
> > >
> > > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
> > >
> > > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
> educators,
> > > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes,
> in
> > > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
> language
> > > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
> > >
> > > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> > > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
> > and
> > > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
> > >
> > > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
> > the
> > > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy.
> And
> > > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
> > >
> > > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
> > all
> > > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot
> of
> > > time to get the code.
> > >
> > > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
> through.
> > >
> > > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
> dictionaries,
> > > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> > > standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
> > And
> > > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
> > broadcasting
> > > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> > > programs).
> > >
> > > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
> > documentation,
> > > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
> > > Wp/ber project.
> > >
> > > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
> > send
> > > the request and the documentation?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > > <[hidden email]>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
> language
> > > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
> > in
> > > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
> > subsume
> > > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> > > >
> > > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
> > not
> > > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> > > >
> > > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
> merits
> > > are
> > > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
> > typically
> > > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> > > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
> language
> > > is
> > > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of
> it
> > > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> > > >
> > > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
> > for
> > > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
> > for
> > > > this.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >       Gerard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
> > > > wanted
> > > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> > > > >
> > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
> 639-2
> > > and
> > > > > ISO
> > > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
> > > 639-3
> > > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> > > > language
> > > > > group".
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact is: it is both.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
> > the
> > > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
> Wp/rif,
> > > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
> they
> > > have
> > > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> > > > >
> > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> > > > language
> > > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
> > constitution
> > > > and
> > > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
> > is
> > > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> > > considering
> > > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
> > > > >
> > > > > So my questions are:
> > > > >
> > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> > > project
> > > > > and approve it?
> > > > >
> > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
> > > Arabic
> > > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
> > dialects
> > > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with its
> > own
> > > > ISO
> > > > > 639-3 language code.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> > > > language
> > > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
> Wp/ber
> > > > > project on a regular basis.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> > > > >
> > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically
> and
> > > > > identically available in two alphabets.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> > > > >
> > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> > > > pan-Berber
> > > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French linguistic
> > > > > institutes):
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
> > > > > terminology.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Moubarik Belkasim
> > > > >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

M. Williamson
I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given
that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is
willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done
on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.

2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight forward,
> we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible. This
> means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save it
> in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
>>
>> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
>> addresses this
>> issue in its entirety.
>>
>> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
>> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
>> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
>>
>> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of
>> the
>> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone
>> the
>> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
>> years.
>>
>> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence
>> of
>> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
>> participate.
>>
>> Cordially.
>>
>> 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
>> >
>> > The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
>> material
>> > will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
>> > Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
>> > ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
>> > important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have
>> > sufficient
>> > documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
>> >
>> > As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
>> likely
>> > not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
>> > situation).
>> > thanks,
>> >     Gerard
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hoi Gerard,
>> > >
>> > > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
>> > > North African and Saharan countries.
>> > >
>> > > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
>> > > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
>> > > Mali...).
>> > >
>> > > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
>> all
>> > > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation
>> > > and
>> > > development.
>> > >
>> > > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber
>> > > come
>> > > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in
>> > > the
>> > > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
>> > there.
>> > >
>> > > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not
>> > > being
>> > > created by the governments.
>> > >
>> > > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
>> > >
>> > > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
>> educators,
>> > > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes,
>> in
>> > > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
>> language
>> > > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
>> > >
>> > > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
>> > > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
>> > and
>> > > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
>> > >
>> > > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
>> > the
>> > > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and bureaucracy.
>> And
>> > > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
>> > >
>> > > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
>> > all
>> > > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a lot
>> of
>> > > time to get the code.
>> > >
>> > > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
>> through.
>> > >
>> > > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
>> dictionaries,
>> > > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
>> > > standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
>> > And
>> > > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
>> > broadcasting
>> > > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
>> > > programs).
>> > >
>> > > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
>> > documentation,
>> > > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of the
>> > > Wp/ber project.
>> > >
>> > > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
>> > send
>> > > the request and the documentation?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks a lot.
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Moubarik Belkasim
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
>> > > <[hidden email]>wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hoi,
>> > > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
>> language
>> > > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only
>> > > > spoken
>> > in
>> > > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
>> > subsume
>> > > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
>> > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
>> > > >
>> > > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
>> > not
>> > > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
>> > > >
>> > > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
>> merits
>> > > are
>> > > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
>> > typically
>> > > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
>> > > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
>> language
>> > > is
>> > > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of
>> it
>> > > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
>> > for
>> > > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental support
>> > for
>> > > > this.
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > >       Gerard
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And
>> > > > > I
>> > > > wanted
>> > > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
>> 639-2
>> > > and
>> > > > > ISO
>> > > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an
>> > > > > ISO
>> > > 639-3
>> > > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
>> > > > language
>> > > > > group".
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The fact is: it is both.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias
>> > > > > for
>> > the
>> > > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
>> Wp/rif,
>> > > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
>> they
>> > > have
>> > > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
>> > > > >
>> > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
>> > > > language
>> > > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
>> > constitution
>> > > > and
>> > > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution,
>> > > > > and
>> > is
>> > > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
>> > > considering
>> > > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of languages/dialects).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So my questions are:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
>> > > project
>> > > > > and approve it?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
>> > > Arabic
>> > > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
>> > > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
>> > dialects
>> > > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with
>> > > > > its
>> > own
>> > > > ISO
>> > > > > 639-3 language code.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
>> > > > language
>> > > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
>> Wp/ber
>> > > > > project on a regular basis.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
>> > and
>> > > > the
>> > > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
>> > > > Wikipedia
>> > > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is automatically
>> and
>> > > > > identically available in two alphabets.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
>> > > > pan-Berber
>> > > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French
>> > > > > linguistic
>> > > > > institutes):
>> > > > >
>> > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of
>> > > > > linguistics
>> > > > > terminology.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Best regards,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Moubarik Belkasim
>> > > > >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>
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Re: Creation of a new Wikipedia - Berber language (native name: Tamazight)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
When the source text is always saved in the Latin script, casing can be
correctly applied to a text. Only when the text is originally in the
Tifinach script there may be issues.
Thanks,
      Gerard

On 15 December 2011 20:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm afraid that round-trip conversion is not easily feasible given
> that Tifinagh has no casing distinctions. However, if the community is
> willing to implement conversion with this caveat in mind, as was done
> on the Inuktitut Wikipedia, it should be possible.
>
> 2011/12/15, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> > Hoi,
> > When the transliteration from and to the Latin script is straight
> forward,
> > we may have a situation where "round trip" transcription is possible.
> This
> > means that like we already do for for instance Serbian and Chinese save
> it
> > in one script and let it be a user preference to use either script.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 14 December 2011 17:48, aksel afersig <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> First, excuse my intrusion into this.
> >>
> >> I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
> >> addresses this
> >> issue in its entirety.
> >>
> >> In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
> >> transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
> >> authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
> >>
> >> Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of
> >> the
> >> Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone
> >> the
> >> opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand
> >> years.
> >>
> >> Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence
> >> of
> >> two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
> >> participate.
> >>
> >> Cordially.
> >>
> >> 2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> >>
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language
> committee.
> >> >
> >> > The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the
> >> material
> >> > will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
> >> > Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
> >> > ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
> >> > important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have
> >> > sufficient
> >> > documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
> >> >
> >> > As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will
> >> likely
> >> > not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either
> or
> >> > situation).
> >> > thanks,
> >> >     Gerard
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hoi Gerard,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across
> 10
> >> > > North African and Saharan countries.
> >> > >
> >> > > But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
> >> > > concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya,
> Niger,
> >> > > Mali...).
> >> > >
> >> > > I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course,
> >> all
> >> > > Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation
> >> > > and
> >> > > development.
> >> > >
> >> > > In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber
> >> > > come
> >> > > from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in
> >> > > the
> >> > > Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
> >> > there.
> >> > >
> >> > > An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not
> >> > > being
> >> > > created by the governments.
> >> > >
> >> > > This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
> >> > >
> >> > > Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists,
> >> educators,
> >> > > and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and
> institutes,
> >> in
> >> > > which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard
> >> language
> >> > > worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
> >> > >
> >> > > In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
> >> > > standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal
> synonyms
> >> > and
> >> > > variations while putting them in a standardized spelling and style.
> >> > >
> >> > > Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language
> is
> >> > the
> >> > > obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of time and
> bureaucracy.
> >> And
> >> > > those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
> >> > >
> >> > > A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL
> about
> >> > all
> >> > > this for some time now. And he tells me that it is going to take a
> lot
> >> of
> >> > > time to get the code.
> >> > >
> >> > > So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this
> >> through.
> >> > >
> >> > > There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber:
> >> dictionaries,
> >> > > government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
> >> > > standard Berber, recently published children's stories,
> manuals...etc.
> >> > And
> >> > > there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in Morocco and Algeria
> >> > broadcasting
> >> > > a lot of material in pretty much standrdized Berber (especially news
> >> > > programs).
> >> > >
> >> > > I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
> >> > documentation,
> >> > > they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of the viability of
> the
> >> > > Wp/ber project.
> >> > >
> >> > > Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should
> I
> >> > send
> >> > > the request and the documentation?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks a lot.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > >
> >> > > Moubarik Belkasim
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> >> > > <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hoi,
> >> > > > There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro
> >> language
> >> > > > consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only
> >> > > > spoken
> >> > in
> >> > > > Morocco and Algeria. Having one language created by government(s)
> >> > subsume
> >> > > > all 25 languages and cultures is a bit much.
> >> > > > http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The language policy does not allow for created languages and it
> does
> >> > not
> >> > > > differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the
> >> merits
> >> > > are
> >> > > > for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
> >> > typically
> >> > > > it chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
> >> > > > committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber
> >> language
> >> > > is
> >> > > > taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue
> of
> >> it
> >> > > > being a constructed language quite a bit.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language
> code
> >> > for
> >> > > > this Berber language. Not hard because there is governmental
> support
> >> > for
> >> > > > this.
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > >       Gerard
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation.
> And
> >> > > > > I
> >> > > > wanted
> >> > > > > to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO
> >> 639-2
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > ISO
> >> > > > > 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an
> >> > > > > ISO
> >> > > 639-3
> >> > > > > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but
> is a
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > group".
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The fact is: it is both.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias
> >> > > > > for
> >> > the
> >> > > > > dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like
> >> Wp/rif,
> >> > > > > Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because
> >> they
> >> > > have
> >> > > > > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the
> Berber
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
> >> > constitution
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution,
> >> > > > > and
> >> > is
> >> > > > > taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
> >> > > considering
> >> > > > > it a language (not just a scholarly group of
> languages/dialects).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > So my questions are:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
> >> > > project
> >> > > > > and approve it?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > -What about the option of "macro-language"?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a
> standard
> >> > > Arabic
> >> > > > > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on
> the
> >> > > > > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
> >> > dialects
> >> > > > > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi Arabic...), each one with
> >> > > > > its
> >> > own
> >> > > > ISO
> >> > > > > 639-3 language code.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified
> Berber
> >> > > > language
> >> > > > > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the
> >> Wp/ber
> >> > > > > project on a regular basis.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in
> Algeria
> >> > and
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
> >> > > > Wikipedia
> >> > > > > or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content is
> automatically
> >> and
> >> > > > > identically available in two alphabets.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
> >> > > > pan-Berber
> >> > > > > specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and French
> >> > > > > linguistic
> >> > > > > institutes):
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of
> >> > > > > linguistics
> >> > > > > terminology.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best regards,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Moubarik Belkasim
> >> > > > >  <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l>
> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >> > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >> > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >> > > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >> > > [hidden email]
> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
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