Dealing with crap deletion nominations

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Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard

Some AFD regulars seem to view AFD/DRV as an independent fiefdom which
claims dominion over all Wikipedia content, but resists all comment from
outside (e.g. wikien-l) as interference. *Unfortunately*, it's been causing
real problems for the Foundation of late. Unbelievable rudeness about
outsiders, stupendously crap nominations to make a point, actively driving
away outside experts, etc.

Here is a suggestion: good faith is not enough when the good-faith actions
are stupidly destructive. Incivility on *FD = 24 hour ban from all *FD
pages and deletion of comment. Sufficiently crap nomination = 1 month ban
from all *FD pages.

Ideas?


- d.



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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 1/22/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Some AFD regulars seem to view AFD/DRV as an independent fiefdom which
> claims dominion over all Wikipedia content, but resists all comment from
> outside (e.g. wikien-l) as interference. *Unfortunately*, it's been
> causing
> real problems for the Foundation of late. Unbelievable rudeness about
> outsiders, stupendously crap nominations to make a point, actively driving
> away outside experts, etc.
>
> Here is a suggestion: good faith is not enough when the good-faith actions
> are stupidly destructive. Incivility on *FD = 24 hour ban from all *FD
> pages and deletion of comment. Sufficiently crap nomination = 1 month ban
> from all *FD pages.
>
> Ideas?
>
>
> - d.


Nothing wrong with the idea perse, but who decides what is crap?

Mgm
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Haukur Þorgeirsson
> Nothing wrong with the idea perse, but who decides what is crap?

Tony, of course. Get with the program ;)

Regards,
Haukur

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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
I'd rather have Kappa, a deletionist and a mergist decide.

Mgm


On 1/22/06, Haukur Þorgeirsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > Nothing wrong with the idea perse, but who decides what is crap?
>
> Tony, of course. Get with the program ;)
>
> Regards,
> Haukur
>
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

geni
On 1/22/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd rather have Kappa, a deletionist and a mergist decide.
>
> Mgm

I'd rather leave it to the community to decide.

--
geni
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard
geni ([hidden email]) [060123 06:05]:
> On 1/22/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I'd rather have Kappa, a deletionist and a mergist decide.
 
> I'd rather leave it to the community to decide.


Doing so is what got us into the present problems and hence just isn't
going to happen.


- d.


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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Philip Sandifer-2
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
How about David, an ardent deletionist, who is due for his more jobs  
after a year of excellent service to the arbcom?

In fact, why don't we give David a title akin to Raul's on featured  
articles? Deletion Director. And give him broad authority to look  
into deletion cases and force sane results. However much one agrees  
with his claims about how systemically broken *FD is, I don't think  
anyone has seriously argued against his extreme sanity when it comes  
to, well, everything.

-Phil

On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:00 PM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> I'd rather have Kappa, a deletionist and a mergist decide.
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 1/22/06, Haukur Þorgeirsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Nothing wrong with the idea perse, but who decides what is crap?
>>
>> Tony, of course. Get with the program ;)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Haukur
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard
Snowspinner ([hidden email]) [060123 06:08]:

> How about David, an ardent deletionist, who is due for his more jobs  
> after a year of excellent service to the arbcom?
> In fact, why don't we give David a title akin to Raul's on featured  
> articles? Deletion Director. And give him broad authority to look  
> into deletion cases and force sane results. However much one agrees  
> with his claims about how systemically broken *FD is, I don't think  
> anyone has seriously argued against his extreme sanity when it comes  
> to, well, everything.


You hate me! You really hate me!

I'm sure everyone would hate my opinions equally.

Besides, since you are agreeing with me this obviously indicates cabalism.

Also, just to piss even more people off, I'll probably delegate large
chunks of the job to Tony.


- d.



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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Philip Sandifer-2

On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:10 PM, David Gerard wrote:


> I'm sure everyone would hate my opinions equally.

Which would probably be an excellent indicator of success.

The suggestion is not insincere - if deletion is going to be brought  
back under the control of the guiding principles under which the site  
is run, there is going to have to be some oversight. You suffer from  
A) Having raised most of the issues we are trying to correct, B)  
Intense sanity, and C) Being strikingly moderate on the deletionism/
inclusionism scale. it seems to me exactly what the page needs.

It may not be what your job or wife need, but you should have thought  
of that before you demonstrated sanity.

-Phil
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard
Snowspinner ([hidden email]) [060123 06:18]:

> It may not be what your job or wife need, but you should have thought  
> of that before you demonstrated sanity.


I'm so adding that to my user page under "Jobs".


- d.



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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Travis Mason-Bushman
In reply to this post by Philip Sandifer-2
On 1/22/06 11:18 AM, "Snowspinner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Which would probably be an excellent indicator of success.

*'''Support''' - David has all the qualities necessary to lead an effective
dictatorship. ~~~~

On a more serious note, this proposal sounds like it's at least worth a
shot, and this ardent deletionist thinks that David would be fair, effective
and iron-fisted when necessary.

-FCYTravis


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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Haukur Þorgeirsson
In reply to this post by Philip Sandifer-2
An interesting idea but the research needed to study every single AfD
case, read the discussion and make an informed decision to keep or delete
is far far beyond what a single person can accomplish. We need lots of
experienced people doing that job. Which is exactly the system we
currently have.

I very much encourage David, Tony, Phil and anyone else concerned with the
decisions and discussions at AfD, to participate in the discussions and/or
close nominations. They don't need any special powers beyond those of
normal admins. If you bring up a good case for keeping an article, AfD
will keep the article most of the time. I'd say the biggest problem with
AfD is the labels thrown around - "vanity", "non-notable", "ad" etc. -
nasty to read for the subjects of the articles. Blanking the discussions
after they're done will help a lot.

Regards,
Haukur


> On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:10 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
>> I'm sure everyone would hate my opinions equally.
>
> Which would probably be an excellent indicator of success.
>
> The suggestion is not insincere - if deletion is going to be brought
> back under the control of the guiding principles under which the site
> is run, there is going to have to be some oversight. You suffer from
> A) Having raised most of the issues we are trying to correct, B)
> Intense sanity, and C) Being strikingly moderate on the deletionism/
> inclusionism scale. it seems to me exactly what the page needs.
>
> It may not be what your job or wife need, but you should have thought
> of that before you demonstrated sanity.
>
> -Phil
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Philip Sandifer-2

On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Haukur Þorgeirsson wrote:

> An interesting idea but the research needed to study every single AfD
> case, read the discussion and make an informed decision to keep or  
> delete
> is far far beyond what a single person can accomplish. We need lots of
> experienced people doing that job. Which is exactly the system we
> currently have.

Well, yeah. That would be stupid. Just like having Raul single-
handedly decide the articles he wanted to be featured would be dumb.

Empowering David to look at a discussion and say "What the hell are  
you smoking," then to make a sane decision, on the other hand, does  
make sense. Particularly when you figure he would mostly not look  
into uncontroversial things in the first place.

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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard
In reply to this post by Haukur Þorgeirsson
Haukur Þorgeirsson ([hidden email]) [060123 06:33]:

> An interesting idea but the research needed to study every single AfD
> case, read the discussion and make an informed decision to keep or delete
> is far far beyond what a single person can accomplish. We need lots of
> experienced people doing that job. Which is exactly the system we
> currently have.
 

Presumably this would only be questioned cases.


> I very much encourage David, Tony, Phil and anyone else concerned with the
> decisions and discussions at AfD, to participate in the discussions and/or
> close nominations.


I am not going to spend a substantial amount of my time exposing myself to
that many stupid articles in need of an urgent death.


- d.



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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Haukur Þorgeirsson
In reply to this post by Philip Sandifer-2
> Empowering David to look at a discussion and say "What the hell are
> you smoking," then to make a sane decision, on the other hand, does
> make sense.

Certainly. And he already has that power, I'd encourage him to use it.
Though if the objective is to build a friendlier, more polite AfD then
"what the hell are you smoking" might not be the best phrase :)


> Particularly when you figure he would mostly not look
> into uncontroversial things in the first place.

A lot of the deletions Tony and others have been raising issues about were
uncontroversial at the time they went through AfD. Nomination,
'''delete''', '''delete''', '''delete''' and it's gone.

Controversial things usually get kept the way the system is designed,
though I admit that there are exceptions.

Regards,
Haukur

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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by David Gerard
David Gerard wrote:

>Some AFD regulars seem to view AFD/DRV as an independent fiefdom which
>claims dominion over all Wikipedia content, but resists all comment from
>outside (e.g. wikien-l) as interference. *Unfortunately*, it's been causing
>real problems for the Foundation of late. Unbelievable rudeness about
>outsiders, stupendously crap nominations to make a point, actively driving
>away outside experts, etc.
>
You make it sound as if you are describing what happens when ignorance
discovers organization.  ;-)

Ec

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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
The blocking administrator for good cause.

Fred

On Jan 22, 2006, at 11:26 AM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> On 1/22/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Some AFD regulars seem to view AFD/DRV as an independent fiefdom  
>> which
>> claims dominion over all Wikipedia content, but resists all  
>> comment from
>> outside (e.g. wikien-l) as interference. *Unfortunately*, it's been
>> causing
>> real problems for the Foundation of late. Unbelievable rudeness about
>> outsiders, stupendously crap nominations to make a point, actively  
>> driving
>> away outside experts, etc.
>>
>> Here is a suggestion: good faith is not enough when the good-faith  
>> actions
>> are stupidly destructive. Incivility on *FD = 24 hour ban from all  
>> *FD
>> pages and deletion of comment. Sufficiently crap nomination = 1  
>> month ban
>> from all *FD pages.
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>
>
> Nothing wrong with the idea perse, but who decides what is crap?
>
> Mgm
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

Tony Sidaway-3
In reply to this post by Haukur Þorgeirsson
On 1/22/06, Haukur Þorgeirsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A lot of the deletions Tony and others have been raising issues about were
> uncontroversial at the time they went through AfD. Nomination,
> '''delete''', '''delete''', '''delete''' and it's gone.


Convincing proof that sometimes AFD gets it very, very wrong.

Second time through for my two unilateral undeletions, a more sensible
discussion, on present showing and a very different result:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/SuperOffice_%28second_nomination%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tally_Solutions_Ltd

I rescued both of these from a DRV discussion that was going *against*
my resurrection of the articles.  There is something very wrong with
DRV if it can't make this kind of sensible decision.
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

gamaliel8
Oh, this is a really bad idea. We don't need set up a special AfD Czar to
smite people. Anyone who is "disruptive" on AfD can be dealt with using the
methods we use to deal with people anywhere else on Wikipedia.
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Re: Dealing with crap deletion nominations

David Gerard
Rob ([hidden email]) [060123 09:22]:

> Oh, this is a really bad idea. We don't need set up a special AfD Czar to
> smite people. Anyone who is "disruptive" on AfD can be dealt with using the
> methods we use to deal with people anywhere else on Wikipedia.


That's a nice idea, but so far "disruption" has been taken as "disagree
with the mob". Tony Sidaway even got a bogus blocking by Sjkakalle for an
undeletion. If you think that's all that's needed, you'll have to flesh out
the idea a bit more.

My proposed idea remains: shut down AFD/DRV for a month. Make it three
months.


- d.



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