Dealing with juvenile vandalism

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Dealing with juvenile vandalism

audevivere
I've been exceptionally busy today dealing with juvenile vandalism, in
between working on writing articles, and may have issued more blocks today
than any other single day.  The childish behavior is sure getting annoying.

Months back, I remember reading something on this mailing list about some
stable version system or something that provides a delay before anon. edits
go live.  Does anyone know if that is going to happen (ever?) or what's
going on with that?  I don't expect anything anytime soon.

Alternatively, I know that when I go on the German, Italian, and some other
Wikipedias, it seems they have many more pages (obvious vandalism targets)
semi-protected.  Our semi-protection policy says "Articles subject to heavy
and continued vandalism" - what amount of vandalism has to happen to be
considered "heavy and continued"?  The situation is getting to be such that
I would support a somewhat more liberal definition of "heavy and continued"
for pages like Taco, Kyle, or Africa which might not experience vandalism as
badly as George W. Bush or Gay but still experience too much vandalism.

Thoughts?

--
Aude
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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Jeremy Cushman-2
> Months back, I remember reading something on this mailing list about some
stable version system or something that provides a delay before anon. edits
go live.  Does anyone know if that is going to happen (ever?) or what's
going on with that?  I don't expect anything anytime soon.

I suggest sending that to [wikitech-l] ([hidden email])
where you're more likely to get a response from the developers.
--Mets501


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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
On popular articles, wouldn't this create huge edit-conflict problems?

Newyorkbrad


On 3/7/07, Mets501 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > Months back, I remember reading something on this mailing list about
> some
> stable version system or something that provides a delay before anon.
> edits
> go live.  Does anyone know if that is going to happen (ever?) or what's
> going on with that?  I don't expect anything anytime soon.
>
> I suggest sending that to [wikitech-l] ([hidden email])
> where you're more likely to get a response from the developers.
> --Mets501
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by audevivere
On 3/8/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've been exceptionally busy today dealing with juvenile vandalism, in
> between working on writing articles, and may have issued more blocks today
> than any other single day.  The childish behavior is sure getting annoying.

Could we have more sophisticated auto-detect vandalism and blocks,
that pick up on likely kiddie vandalism, and automatically issue short
term blocks? Something like 30 minutes, and if they do it again, then
we can (manually) intervene and escalate. The amount of manual work
required to combat basic "o rly i can edit??" type vandalism is
excessive - and as you point out, tiring.

Steve

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Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

audevivere
In reply to this post by Jeremy Cushman-2
Okay, I'm crossposting it, in hopes that someone technical can answer to the
enwiki list.

Though, I get the sense that maybe it's not so much a technical issue of
implementing it but some other issues holding it up?  I thought the
stable/delay thing was going to be tried on dewiki and then if it worked
then brought over here.  Has it even been tried yet on dewiki? or what?

-Aude

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mets501 <[hidden email]>
Date: Mar 7, 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Dealing with juvenile vandalism
To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>

> Months back, I remember reading something on this mailing list about some
stable version system or something that provides a delay before anon. edits
go live.  Does anyone know if that is going to happen (ever?) or what's
going on with that?  I don't expect anything anytime soon.

I suggest sending that to [wikitech-l] ([hidden email])
where you're more likely to get a response from the developers.
--Mets501


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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
On 3/8/07, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On popular articles, wouldn't this create huge edit-conflict problems?

The proposal was to simply hide the anon edits from the outside world.
It would have no impact on edit conflicts, as the changes go live
internally straight away.

I have always liked this proposal, but the consensus seemed to be more
in favour of the "designated stable version" proposal.

Steve

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
There would still be edit conflicts.  Let's say the delay is 15 minutes.  At
8:00, anon edits a sentence (validly). At 8:05, registered user edits the
same sentence differently.  What happens?  Okay, now it's 8:15, time for the
anon edit to go live.  What happens then?

Newyorkbrad


On 3/7/07, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 3/8/07, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On popular articles, wouldn't this create huge edit-conflict problems?
>
> The proposal was to simply hide the anon edits from the outside world.
> It would have no impact on edit conflicts, as the changes go live
> internally straight away.
>
> I have always liked this proposal, but the consensus seemed to be more
> in favour of the "designated stable version" proposal.
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Jeff Raymond
In reply to this post by audevivere
Aude wrote:
> Though, I get the sense that maybe it's not so much a technical issue of
> implementing it but some other issues holding it up?  I thought the
> stable/delay thing was going to be tried on dewiki and then if it worked
> then brought over here.  Has it even been tried yet on dewiki? or what?

There was a pretty strong consensus against stable versions when it was
first pushed last fall.  I'm not sure if that consensus still exists
(I'm strongly opposed to the concept myself), but it's worth noting.

-Jeff


--
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E-mail: [hidden email]
WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
IM: badlydrawnjeff
Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly
        because you kind of get the impression she
        sang every song either about or to her cats.
        They seem to be the driving force in most of
        her creative process."     - Chuck Klosterman

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

audevivere
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
I know there are issues with comparing one day's worth of activity against
monthly averages.

But out of curiosity I've tabulated how much blocking has happened in the
past day:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aude/adminactivity

This is to compare with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Durin/Admin_activity#Top_twenty_for_time_period_January_2007

It seems the amount of blocks has gone up quite a bit since January.
Compare Can't sleep clown will eat me's blocks for the two time periods.  Or
it could be higher, because today was a school day.
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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

audevivere
In reply to this post by Jeff Raymond
Would you support a more liberal definition of "heavy and continued
vandalism" or some other means (not sure what it would be) of curbing
vandalism?

-Aude

On 3/7/07, Jeff Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Aude wrote:
> > Though, I get the sense that maybe it's not so much a technical issue of
> > implementing it but some other issues holding it up?  I thought the
> > stable/delay thing was going to be tried on dewiki and then if it worked
> > then brought over here.  Has it even been tried yet on dewiki? or what?
>
> There was a pretty strong consensus against stable versions when it was
> first pushed last fall.  I'm not sure if that consensus still exists
> (I'm strongly opposed to the concept myself), but it's worth noting.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> --
> Name: Jeff Raymond
> E-mail: [hidden email]
> WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com
> IM: badlydrawnjeff
> Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly
>         because you kind of get the impression she
>         sang every song either about or to her cats.
>         They seem to be the driving force in most of
>         her creative process."     - Chuck Klosterman
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Aude
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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Michael Snow
In reply to this post by audevivere
Jeff Raymond wrote:

> Aude wrote:
>
>> Though, I get the sense that maybe it's not so much a technical issue of
>> implementing it but some other issues holding it up?  I thought the
>> stable/delay thing was going to be tried on dewiki and then if it worked
>> then brought over here.  Has it even been tried yet on dewiki? or what?
>
> There was a pretty strong consensus against stable versions when it
> was first pushed last fall.  I'm not sure if that consensus still
> exists (I'm strongly opposed to the concept myself), but it's worth
> noting.

I think you're talking about different things. Stable versions as a
software feature (or perhaps better said, non-vandalized and reviewed
versions) is what the German Wikipedia intends to test once the feature
is actually programmed. However, finding someone who can do the
programming has been a challenge and the current developer crew is
already taxed just with keeping the site running.

Stable versions simply based on using templates and so forth, as
described at [[Wikipedia:Stable versions]], was effectively rejected.
But a significant part of the objection to it was that this should be
handled by the software instead. As to the software feature, the debate
is only about the details of implementation at this point.

--Michael Snow

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
On 3/8/07, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There would still be edit conflicts.  Let's say the delay is 15 minutes.  At
> 8:00, anon edits a sentence (validly). At 8:05, registered user edits the
> same sentence differently.  What happens?  Okay, now it's 8:15, time for the
> anon edit to go live.  What happens then?

I may not have explained it well. Would this help:

7.55: World sees "Mary is smart." Editors see "Mary is smart."
8:00: World sees "Mary is smart." Editors see "Mary is a poopoo."
8:05: World sees "Mary has an IQ of 130." Editors see "Mary has an IQ of 130."
8:15: World sees "Mary has an IQ of 130." Editors see "Mary has an IQ of 130."

So you see, at 8:05, a registered editor sees the anon change, and
fixes it. Since the editor is registered, their change goes live
straight away.

Steve

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Steve Bennett-8
On 3/8/07, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So you see, at 8:05, a registered editor sees the anon change, and
> fixes it. Since the editor is registered, their change goes live
> straight away.

The obvious benefits here:
- The world never saw the anon's (bad) edits
- Registered editors were not inconvenienced at all
- There is still scope for anon's edits to make it to the outside
world. The 15 minute delay above could be 5 minutes for a heavily
patrolled article, or 3 days for a more obscure one.

Unsolved questions:
- What happens if a registered editor edits some unrelated part of the
article? Is any change considered to implicitly "approve" any pending
anon edits?
- What version of the page should the anon see? His changes? Is this
even possible?
- What version of the page should other anons see if they edit?
Presumably the real version...

Steve

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by audevivere
On 3/8/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've been exceptionally busy today dealing with juvenile vandalism, in
> between working on writing articles, and may have issued more blocks today
> than any other single day.  The childish behavior is sure getting annoying.
>
> Months back, I remember reading something on this mailing list about some
> stable version system or something that provides a delay before anon. edits
> go live.  Does anyone know if that is going to happen (ever?) or what's
> going on with that?  I don't expect anything anytime soon.

Work is ongoing (we've addressed this as a high priority issue on the
Board level for some time now); however, I will only give a first
report once I'm confident it will lead somewhere - not a good thing to
announce potential vapourware.

In the meantime, I think people should apply semi-protection more
liberally. Our first goal is to write an encyclopedia, and that can be
often done perfectly well with the existing community. I find it
absurd that the featured article is still not routinely
semi-protected. Yes, everyone can edit Wikipedia. Everyone _knows_
that by now. Many people are starting to think it's a bug, not a
feature.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

"An old, rigid civilization is reluctantly dying. Something new, open,
free and exciting is waking up." -- Ming the Mechanic

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Dycedarg
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
On 3/8/07, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I may not have explained it well. Would this help:
>
> 7.55: World sees "Mary is smart." Editors see "Mary is smart."
> 8:00: World sees "Mary is smart." Editors see "Mary is a poopoo."
> 8:05: World sees "Mary has an IQ of 130." Editors see "Mary has an IQ of 130."
> 8:15: World sees "Mary has an IQ of 130." Editors see "Mary has an IQ of 130."
>
> So you see, at 8:05, a registered editor sees the anon change, and
> fixes it. Since the editor is registered, their change goes live
> straight away.
>
> Steve

This sounds like a good idea in theory, but I rather think the
implementation will be problematic. From what I understand of what you
said, registered users will be able to see all edits immediately, and
have all their edits applied immediately, while anons can not see the
edits made by any other anon for fifteen minutes. If this is the case,
it could be pretty jarring for an anon to go to the edit screen only
to find out that three people have edited it but haven't had their
edits made live yet, and will only make anonymous editing (which from
what I understand constitutes the majority of the editing that takes
place) of any highly trafficked article more annoying and stressful
and could reduce the amount of editing that takes place altogether. It
would (considering the speed at which any blatant vandalism is
reverted) only moderately improve how the encyclopedia looks for the
majority of readers at the expense of a rather large amount of
inconvenience for the majority of editors, and from my point of view
it is simply not worth the negative effects.

--Dycedarg

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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Jeff Raymond
Jeff Raymond wrote:

>Aude wrote:
>  
>
>>Though, I get the sense that maybe it's not so much a technical issue of
>>implementing it but some other issues holding it up?  I thought the
>>stable/delay thing was going to be tried on dewiki and then if it worked
>>then brought over here.  Has it even been tried yet on dewiki? or what?
>>    
>>
>There was a pretty strong consensus against stable versions when it was
>first pushed last fall.  I'm not sure if that consensus still exists
>(I'm strongly opposed to the concept myself), but it's worth noting.
>
I don't remember any such consensus against it.

Ec


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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:21:34 -0800, Ray Saintonge
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>There was a pretty strong consensus against stable versions when it was
>>first pushed last fall.  I'm not sure if that consensus still exists
>>(I'm strongly opposed to the concept myself), but it's worth noting.

>I don't remember any such consensus against it.

Neither do I.  

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
On 08/03/07, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There would still be edit conflicts.  Let's say the delay is 15 minutes.  At
> 8:00, anon edits a sentence (validly). At 8:05, registered user edits the
> same sentence differently.  What happens?  Okay, now it's 8:15, time for the
> anon edit to go live.  What happens then?

The second user doesn't edit the original text; he edits the 0800
modified text, and *those* edits go live. No edit conflicts.

(The intent of that proposal is to do exactly this - it allows
vandalism to be caught in that 15 minute lag time)

In effect, it's like what you have now when you edit a heavily
trafficed page - the version you work on may be very different from
the one you were reading two minutes ago, because you edit the version
on the server not the version you're reading.


--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

audevivere
I have put together a few charts, with block activity for the period of
February 19 - March 7th.  May do more with this data later, tonight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aude/adminactivity

My perception that vandalism drops off significantly on the weekends is
true.  I also recall a sharp increase in vandalism last September when
school resumed in the U.S. and other places.

Vandalism is also highest during the day and evenings (in the U.S.), the U.S.
is by far the biggest source of vandalism, and schools/universities comprise
approximately 1/4 of all vandalism from IP addresses.

I think this means I (and others) need to make blocks of school IPs be for
longer duration... the same for other repeat vandals.

-Aude
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Re: Fwd: Dealing with juvenile vandalism

Jeff Raymond
In reply to this post by Michael Snow

Michael Snow wrote:

> Stable versions simply based on using templates and so forth, as
> described at [[Wikipedia:Stable versions]], was effectively rejected.
> But a significant part of the objection to it was that this should be
> handled by the software instead. As to the software feature, the debate
> is only about the details of implementation at this point.

A lot of the objection stemmed from the fact that there were "Stable
versions" to begin with, not so much the software.  I wouldn't be so quick
to dismiss the discussion so quickly - I know my objection is to the whole
concept, not how it would be implemented.

-Jeff

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