Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

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Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

MZMcBride
There's been a bit of recent discussion about deprecating the term 'sysop'
throughout MediaWiki by replacing it with 'admin' or 'administrator'.

The primary advantage here would be that 'admin' or 'administrator' is more
clear and better defines the role that these users play within a wiki. See
also related bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16737

There are a number of different places that 'sysop' is used throughout the
software, and it may or may not be advantageous to change all of them (for
example inside the user_groups table). On the other hand, however, changing
only some of the software while not changing other parts may simply lead to
more confusion.

Thoughts on the idea in general? Thoughts on the details?

MZMcBride
[hidden email]



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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Siebrand Mazeland
If you check MessagesEn.php you will find that Administrator(s) and Sysop(s)
are both used. In r45154 I (arbitrarily) changed the remaining [Ss]ysop(s)
to [Aa]dministrators. In hindsight most probably because "sysop" is either
archaic, or MediaWiki specific, while "administrator" is a more known term
for someone with administrative rights in a piece of software.

In r45249 brion reverted this change with the comment "Let's not go changing
core terminology around without making sure there's general agreement".

A few observations/opinions:
(a) general agreement is impossible (and agreement among whom? Developers,
users, those that read this mailing list, ...)
(b) consistent naming of a role is important to not confuse users of the
software

I think that it is clear that at least something should be harmonised if you
observe the messages below:

$ egrep "([Aa]dministrator|[Ss]ysop)" MessagesEn.php
 * While logged in as a sysop user, go to [[Special:Allmessages]]
The administrator who locked it offered this explanation: $1',
Please report this to an [[Special:ListUsers/sysop|administrator]], making
note of the URL.',
You can contact $1 or another
[[{{MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysop}}|administrator]] to discuss the block.
You may contact $1 or one of the other
[[{{MediaWiki:Grouppage-sysop}}|administrators]] to discuss the block.
The administrator who locked it offered this explanation: $1',
'protectedpagewarning'             => '<strong>WARNING: This page has been
locked so that only users with sysop privileges can edit it.</strong>',
'cascadeprotectedwarning'          => "'''Warning:''' This page has been
locked so that only users with sysop privileges can edit it, because it is
included in the following cascade-protected {{PLURAL:$1|page|pages}}:",
As an administrator on {{SITENAME}} you can view it;
'revdelete-hide-restricted'   => 'Apply these restrictions to Sysops and
lock this interface',
'revdelete-suppress'          => 'Suppress data from Sysops as well as
others',
'revdelete-restricted'        => 'applied restrictions to sysops',
'revdelete-unrestricted'      => 'removed restrictions for sysops',
'suppressionlogtext' => 'Below is a list of deletions and blocks involving
content hidden from sysops.
'userrights-nologin'             => 'You must [[Special:UserLogin|log in]]
with an administrator account to assign user rights.',
'group-sysop'         => 'Sysops',
'group-sysop-member'         => 'Sysop',
'grouppage-sysop'         => '{{ns:project}}:Administrators',
'right-suppressrevision'     => 'Review and restore revisions hidden from
Sysops',
Please contact an [[Special:ListUsers/sysop|administrator]].',
If the problem persists, contact an
[[Special:ListUsers/sysop|administrator]].',
'protect-level-sysop'         => 'Sysops only',
'restriction-level-sysop'         => 'full protected',
The actual text of these deleted revisions is only available to
administrators.',
'range_block_disabled'            => 'The sysop ability to create range
blocks is disabled.',

Cheers! Siebrand

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] Namens MZMcBride
Verzonden: woensdag 31 december 2008 22:20
Aan: [hidden email]
Onderwerp: [Wikitech-l] Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

There's been a bit of recent discussion about deprecating the term 'sysop'
throughout MediaWiki by replacing it with 'admin' or 'administrator'.

The primary advantage here would be that 'admin' or 'administrator' is more
clear and better defines the role that these users play within a wiki. See
also related bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16737

There are a number of different places that 'sysop' is used throughout the
software, and it may or may not be advantageous to change all of them (for
example inside the user_groups table). On the other hand, however, changing
only some of the software while not changing other parts may simply lead to
more confusion.

Thoughts on the idea in general? Thoughts on the details?

MZMcBride
[hidden email]


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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

techman224
In reply to this post by MZMcBride
I think that admin or administrator is better then sysop because more  
people know the word "administrator" then "sysop". I think that the  
developers should get rid of "sysop" from every part of Mediawiki and  
replace it with "Administrator". That's just my opinion.

Techman224

On 31-Dec-08, at 3:19 PM, MZMcBride wrote:

> There's been a bit of recent discussion about deprecating the term  
> 'sysop'
> throughout MediaWiki by replacing it with 'admin' or 'administrator'.
>
> The primary advantage here would be that 'admin' or 'administrator'  
> is more
> clear and better defines the role that these users play within a  
> wiki. See
> also related bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16737
>
> There are a number of different places that 'sysop' is used  
> throughout the
> software, and it may or may not be advantageous to change all of  
> them (for
> example inside the user_groups table). On the other hand, however,  
> changing
> only some of the software while not changing other parts may simply  
> lead to
> more confusion.
>
> Thoughts on the idea in general? Thoughts on the details?
>
> MZMcBride
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

David Gerard-2
2008/12/31 Techman224 <[hidden email]>:

> I think that admin or administrator is better then sysop because more
> people know the word "administrator" then "sysop". I think that the
> developers should get rid of "sysop" from every part of Mediawiki and
> replace it with "Administrator". That's just my opinion.


It's always been a matter of confusion that "sysop" means
"administrator on the content server" while "dev" means "sysop".

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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Remember the dot
For what it's worth, I agree that the term "administrator" should be
consistently used in MediaWiki instead of using both "administrator" and
"sysop".

--
Remember the dot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Remember_the_dot
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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Brion Vibber-3
In reply to this post by Siebrand Mazeland
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Siebrand Mazeland wrote:

> If you check MessagesEn.php you will find that Administrator(s) and Sysop(s)
> are both used. In r45154 I (arbitrarily) changed the remaining [Ss]ysop(s)
> to [Aa]dministrators. In hindsight most probably because "sysop" is either
> archaic, or MediaWiki specific, while "administrator" is a more known term
> for someone with administrative rights in a piece of software.
>
> In r45249 brion reverted this change with the comment "Let's not go changing
> core terminology around without making sure there's general agreement".
>
> A few observations/opinions:
> (a) general agreement is impossible (and agreement among whom? Developers,
> users, those that read this mailing list, ...)

:)

At a minimum, a major terminology change such as these really ought to
be pre-announced. Making sure that there's general interest in it before
changing all the translations and the various UI elements that it
affects also seems wise.

- -- brion
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=MdMX
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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Chris Down-2
As far as I am aware, the term 'sysop' is only used on more behind the
scenes places - places where the average Wikipedia editor or reader is not
likely to go. Sysop is, at least in my opinion, the more technically adept
term, but I suppose the traditional meaning of it does not describe the job
of a Wikipedia administrator correctly.

I think a wide consensus needs to be gathered before such a change is made,
even if it is perhaps considered relatively minor.

- Chris

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
> > If you check MessagesEn.php you will find that Administrator(s) and
> Sysop(s)
> > are both used. In r45154 I (arbitrarily) changed the remaining
> [Ss]ysop(s)
> > to [Aa]dministrators. In hindsight most probably because "sysop" is
> either
> > archaic, or MediaWiki specific, while "administrator" is a more known
> term
> > for someone with administrative rights in a piece of software.
> >
> > In r45249 brion reverted this change with the comment "Let's not go
> changing
> > core terminology around without making sure there's general agreement".
> >
> > A few observations/opinions:
> > (a) general agreement is impossible (and agreement among whom?
> Developers,
> > users, those that read this mailing list, ...)
>
> :)
>
> At a minimum, a major terminology change such as these really ought to
> be pre-announced. Making sure that there's general interest in it before
> changing all the translations and the various UI elements that it
> affects also seems wise.
>
> - -- brion
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAklb9GsACgkQwRnhpk1wk44KbQCfa13HnIOHjXTQhogXAewsqLI0
> bXIAnjw+QMYFYQDQDATXTKxLKEe+t62C
> =MdMX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Aryeh Gregor
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Chris Down
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> As far as I am aware, the term 'sysop' is only used on more behind the
> scenes places - places where the average Wikipedia editor or reader is not
> likely to go. Sysop is, at least in my opinion, the more technically adept
> term, but I suppose the traditional meaning of it does not describe the job
> of a Wikipedia administrator correctly.
>
> I think a wide consensus needs to be gathered before such a change is made,
> even if it is perhaps considered relatively minor.

Note that individual wikis could change back if they liked it.  We're
talking about the software defaults here, not enwiki or any other
single wiki.

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Re: Deprecate 'sysop' throughout MediaWiki?

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
In reply to this post by Remember the dot
"Remember the dot" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> For what it's worth, I agree that the term "administrator" should be
> consistently used in MediaWiki instead of using both "administrator" and
> "sysop".
>

I agree.  To me, a wiki administrator is someone with full privileges on the
wiki, and a sysop is someone with server privileges who can do all the
technical back-end bits e.g. installing extensions, running maintenance
scripts, modifying LocalSettings.php, etc.  Using sysop within the software
implies more powers than are actually available, at least it does to me.

In software I have developed, we tend to use sysadmin and techadmin to
differentiate the two.

- Mark Clements (HappyDog).



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