Discussion Platform

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Discussion Platform

MAYANK JINDAL
Hi,
We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change our
discussion platform?
Many organizations have switched to gitter that have very user-friendly UI
and very easy to use.
Please give a view on my proposal.


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Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur
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Re: Discussion Platform

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:50 AM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change our
> discussion platform?
> Many organizations have switched to gitter that have very user-friendly UI
> and very easy to use.
> Please give a view on my proposal.
>

It seems very unlikely that we would gain much by moving from an
established open standard to a proprietary walled garden service.

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Re: Discussion Platform

Gabriel Wicke-3
Some of us have been using matrix.org, which is an open system with many of
the features expected from a modern chat system. It also bridges to IRC,
but usability and reliability of that bridging can still be improved. See
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:GWicke/Matrix.org for instructions.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:50 AM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change our
> > discussion platform?
> > Many organizations have switched to gitter that have very user-friendly
> UI
> > and very easy to use.
> > Please give a view on my proposal.
> >
>
> It seems very unlikely that we would gain much by moving from an
> established open standard to a proprietary walled garden service.
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



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Re: Discussion Platform

Stephen Niedzielski
+1 for matrix.org. I use Riot <https://riot.im/app> and the Android app.
The IRC bridge is still a bit flaky but it seems more reliable than a
bouncer. If you do go the bouncer route, I recommend firrre
<https://firrre.com/>.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Gabriel Wicke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some of us have been using matrix.org, which is an open system with many
> of
> the features expected from a modern chat system. It also bridges to IRC,
> but usability and reliability of that bridging can still be improved. See
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:GWicke/Matrix.org for instructions.
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:50 AM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change
> our
> > > discussion platform?
> > > Many organizations have switched to gitter that have very user-friendly
> > UI
> > > and very easy to use.
> > > Please give a view on my proposal.
> > >
> >
> > It seems very unlikely that we would gain much by moving from an
> > established open standard to a proprietary walled garden service.
> >
> > --
> > Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gabriel Wicke
> Principal Engineer, Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Discussion Platform

Andre Klapper-2
In reply to this post by MAYANK JINDAL
Hi,

On Tue, 2016-12-06 at 18:20 +0530, MAYANK JINDAL wrote:
> We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change our
> discussion platform? Many organizations have switched to gitter that
> have very user-friendly UI and very easy to use.

Defining first which problems to solve would be good before dropping
random names (as the next person might mention Slack, Matrix, <insert
favorite tool and its color here>). "Easy to use" feels subjective...

Feel free to join https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T150732 regarding
Wikimedia sites, and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T149661 for
MediaWiki related software, to help defining problems.

andre
--
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: Discussion Platform

Keegan Peterzell-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Niedzielski
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Stephen Niedzielski <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 for matrix.org. I use Riot <https://riot.im/app> and the Android app.
> The IRC bridge is still a bit flaky but it seems more reliable than a
> bouncer. If you do go the bouncer route, I recommend firrre
> <https://firrre.com/>.
>
>
​Firrre signups are suspended (again), and they used to also require
linking to an active github.


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Re: Discussion Platform

MAYANK JINDAL
In reply to this post by MAYANK JINDAL
Hi,
The problem is in IRC that it doesn't allow to see previous messages.
I mean it only shows messages as long as you are logged in.




On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 6:20 PM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
> We are using IRC for discussion purpose. How will it be if we change our
> discussion platform?
> Many organizations have switched to gitter that have very user-friendly UI
> and very easy to use.
> Please give a view on my proposal.
>
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Mayank Jindal,
> Third year undergraduate student,
> Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur
> Mobile : +91- 7076670299 <+91%2070766%2070299> || 8875432718
>
>
>
>
>


--
Kind Regards,
Mayank Jindal,
Third year undergraduate student,
Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur
Mobile : +91- 7076670299 || 8875432718
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Re: Discussion Platform

bawolff
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 7:44 AM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
> The problem is in IRC that it doesn't allow to see previous messages.
> I mean it only shows messages as long as you are logged in.
>

This isn't really a new problem. Some people use bouncers [1] to solve
this. Other people just don't care about messages when they are not
online (If someone really wants to talk to you asynchronously they can
wait until you are back online, or leave a message on your talk page,
or send you an email, or use MEMOSERV, etc). On most Wikimedia tech
channels you can also find old messages at
http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZNC

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Re: Discussion Platform

Cyken Zeraux
A lot of places are using Discord now, too. It has an offline, mobile, and
web client that are more media based, so there's multiple channels and
support for direct files/images uploads. I think it would make it a lot
easier to actually have a chat platform you can interact with other people
in. The problem being that Roles (how permissions works in discord) would
show different users under that role under the active users list, so it
would be a lot easier to mention various people important to mediawiki.
Some developers may not like that, but from a community interaction
standpoint, it'd be pretty cool.

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 6:50 AM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 7:44 AM, MAYANK JINDAL <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > The problem is in IRC that it doesn't allow to see previous messages.
> > I mean it only shows messages as long as you are logged in.
> >
>
> This isn't really a new problem. Some people use bouncers [1] to solve
> this. Other people just don't care about messages when they are not
> online (If someone really wants to talk to you asynchronously they can
> wait until you are back online, or leave a message on your talk page,
> or send you an email, or use MEMOSERV, etc). On most Wikimedia tech
> channels you can also find old messages at
> http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZNC
>
> --
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Discussion Platform

John Doe-27
An issue was raised about only seeing IRC messages while logged in, however
the WMF does publicly log several of their channels, so that is a moot point
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Re: Discussion Platform

Cyken Zeraux
Public logging isn't very accessible. When you join in a chat after being
disconnected (like IRC does all the time), you'd like to look through the
previous discussions easily.

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 4:30 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> An issue was raised about only seeing IRC messages while logged in, however
> the WMF does publicly log several of their channels, so that is a moot
> point
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Re: Discussion Platform

John Doe-27
Depends on how you define easy.
http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23mediawiki/ is a recording of
everything in #mediawiki by date, oldest at the top, newest at the bottom.
I would consider that fairly easy.

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Cyken Zeraux <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Public logging isn't very accessible. When you join in a chat after being
> disconnected (like IRC does all the time), you'd like to look through the
> previous discussions easily.
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 4:30 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > An issue was raised about only seeing IRC messages while logged in,
> however
> > the WMF does publicly log several of their channels, so that is a moot
> > point
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>
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Re: Discussion Platform

Tim Landscheidt
In reply to this post by Cyken Zeraux
Cyken Zeraux <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Public logging isn't very accessible. When you join in a chat after being
> disconnected (like IRC does all the time), you'd like to look through the
> previous discussions easily.

> […]

For ERC, I have the sniplet:

| (defun erc-cmd-TODAYSLOG nil
|   "Show today's log for current channel in a new buffer."
|   (let*
|       ((ch (erc-default-target))
|        (todays-date (format-time-string "%Y%m%d"))
|        (url (concat "http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/" (url-hexify-string ch) "/" todays-date ".txt"))
|        (logbuffername (concat "*Today's log for " ch "*")))
|     (url-retrieve url
|                   (lambda (status logbuffername)
|                     (let
|                         ((url-buffer (current-buffer)))
|                       (switch-to-buffer logbuffername)
|                       (goto-char (point-min))
|                       (url-insert url-buffer)
|                       (delete-region (point) (point-max))
|                       (goto-char (point-min))
|                       (insert (erc-controls-interpret (buffer-string)))
|                       (delete-region (point) (point-max))
|                       (kill-buffer url-buffer)))
|                   (list logbuffername))))

which makes "/todayslog" pop up a buffer with the log for
the current channel and day (there is also
"/yesterdayslog").

However, I consider IRC communications to be transient, much
like conversations in an office.  When one comes back from a
break or holiday, one does not listen to recordings of all
the chit-chat that happened since leaving.  If something im-
portant has been discussed, then it is the duty of those
having discussed it to inform those who need to know in a
condensed and comprehensive manner.  If it was not impor-
tant, well, then it was not important.

Tim


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Re: Discussion Platform

Stas Malyshev
In reply to this post by John Doe-27
Hi!

> Depends on how you define easy.
> http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23mediawiki/ is a recording of
> everything in #mediawiki by date, oldest at the top, newest at the bottom.
> I would consider that fairly easy.

It's easy if your use case is "reading everything on a particular day".
If your use case is "locating that part where John and Mary talked about
FooBar", it's not easy at all. Raw logs are as usable as... well, raw
logs. People do read raw logs from time to time, but usually they employ
tools to make sense of them - e.g. kibana, etc. Of course, it's a bit
strained analogy, but my point is IRC raw logs are not a very good UI
for many use cases.
Don't have a good solution for this, as IRC is still excellent as
transient quick discussion medium, but much less as a long-term
persistent discussion one. OTOH, maybe that should be done with wiki+Flow?

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