Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

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Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

Milos Rancic-2
I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
need wider discussion for concluding them.

One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].

[1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
[2] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual

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Re: Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

gopher65
You know, I've actually been recently considering an idea for combining all
of the Wikinews language editions into a single project. However, the code
required to accomplish this in a reasonable fashion does not currently
exist, and I don't think that anyone at the foundation would be willing to
jump in and volunteer the significant amount of dev time that would be
necessary to make such a project possible from a technical perspective...
even though I can see Wikipedia benefiting immensely from the same tech.

Imagine going onto a single, non-language specific Wikipedia, simply
selecting your language from a list, and having every major article appear
in your selected language. You switch to another language, the same article
appears, with the same text, merely having been translated by users.
Translation is MUCH easier than writing a Featured Article quality article
from scratch (FA articles take a surprising amount of effort and time to
write), so this would significantly decrease the current duplication of
effort that is taking place in the "separate but equal" multiple-languages
version of the mediawiki software that we currently use. In such a model of
Wikipedia much more emphasis would be placed on the translation of other
language's articles into every language than is currently the case. (For
instance, a while ago I was looking up some special type of Russian Perogie.
The article I wanted doesn't exist on English Wikipedia, but it does exist
on Russian Wikipedia... which was useless to me, because I don't speak
Russian. Thankfully Google Translate came to the rescue... sorta.) ;-)

Back to Wikinews and the issue at hand. As a Wikinews specific example of
how this could eventually work: you have an article about something that
happened in France, investigated by French Wikinewies, originally written in
French, and then translated into Dutch, English, German, and Mandarin by
other Wikinewsies. That type of coordination is currently *possible*, but
it's much more difficult to manage than it would be in a better designed,
multi-frontpage, auto-language selection multi-lingual site (based on your
preferences for logged in users, or a per-visit dropdown language selection
system (for non-logged in users)). Right now if you try to do that kind of
thing you're attempting to coordinate 20 different people spread across 10
different sites; it's nigh-on impossible in practice, unfortunately.

Because of the technical issues that would need to be addressed, at the
present time I'd have to say that a multi-lingual version of Wikinews simply
isn't practical. Combining the efforts of Wikinewies everywhere and reducing
our duplication of effort via translation of locally investigated and
written articles would be a great idea, but it's not something that will
happen soon. That's something for the far future (10 or 15 years from now
maybe), not for the immediate future. Wikinews as a whole has bigger things
to worry about than that, for the moment.

Maybe though, Wikipedia doesn't?

Gopher65

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:32 AM
To: "Wikinews mailing list" <[hidden email]>; "Wikimedia
Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Wikinews-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

> I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
> requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
> need wider discussion for concluding them.
>
> One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
> here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
> those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].
>
> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
> [2] -
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikinews-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>

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Re: Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

bawolff
Personally i've seen all the trouble that commons goes through to be
multilingual (from the outside anyways; the commoners can coment
better then me), and it seems to be a lot of effort (even from a
simple prespective of should the welcome message be in english or
french).
--
- Bawolff
Caution: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85
million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.



On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 6:59 PM, gopher65 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You know, I've actually been recently considering an idea for combining all
> of the Wikinews language editions into a single project. However, the code
> required to accomplish this in a reasonable fashion does not currently
> exist, and I don't think that anyone at the foundation would be willing to
> jump in and volunteer the significant amount of dev time that would be
> necessary to make such a project possible from a technical perspective...
> even though I can see Wikipedia benefiting immensely from the same tech.
>
> Imagine going onto a single, non-language specific Wikipedia, simply
> selecting your language from a list, and having every major article appear
> in your selected language. You switch to another language, the same article
> appears, with the same text, merely having been translated by users.
> Translation is MUCH easier than writing a Featured Article quality article
> from scratch (FA articles take a surprising amount of effort and time to
> write), so this would significantly decrease the current duplication of
> effort that is taking place in the "separate but equal" multiple-languages
> version of the mediawiki software that we currently use. In such a model of
> Wikipedia much more emphasis would be placed on the translation of other
> language's articles into every language than is currently the case. (For
> instance, a while ago I was looking up some special type of Russian Perogie.
> The article I wanted doesn't exist on English Wikipedia, but it does exist
> on Russian Wikipedia... which was useless to me, because I don't speak
> Russian. Thankfully Google Translate came to the rescue... sorta.) ;-)
>
> Back to Wikinews and the issue at hand. As a Wikinews specific example of
> how this could eventually work: you have an article about something that
> happened in France, investigated by French Wikinewies, originally written in
> French, and then translated into Dutch, English, German, and Mandarin by
> other Wikinewsies. That type of coordination is currently *possible*, but
> it's much more difficult to manage than it would be in a better designed,
> multi-frontpage, auto-language selection multi-lingual site (based on your
> preferences for logged in users, or a per-visit dropdown language selection
> system (for non-logged in users)). Right now if you try to do that kind of
> thing you're attempting to coordinate 20 different people spread across 10
> different sites; it's nigh-on impossible in practice, unfortunately.
>
> Because of the technical issues that would need to be addressed, at the
> present time I'd have to say that a multi-lingual version of Wikinews simply
> isn't practical. Combining the efforts of Wikinewies everywhere and reducing
> our duplication of effort via translation of locally investigated and
> written articles would be a great idea, but it's not something that will
> happen soon. That's something for the far future (10 or 15 years from now
> maybe), not for the immediate future. Wikinews as a whole has bigger things
> to worry about than that, for the moment.
>
> Maybe though, Wikipedia doesn't?
>
> Gopher65
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:32 AM
> To: "Wikinews mailing list" <[hidden email]>; "Wikimedia
> Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Wikinews-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews
>
>> I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
>> requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
>> need wider discussion for concluding them.
>>
>> One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
>> here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
>> those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].
>>
>> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
>> [2] -
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikinews-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikinews-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>

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Re: Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by gopher65
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:59 AM, gopher65 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You know, I've actually been recently considering an idea for combining all
> of the Wikinews language editions into a single project. However, the code
> required to accomplish this in a reasonable fashion does not currently
> exist, and I don't think that anyone at the foundation would be willing to
> jump in and volunteer the significant amount of dev time that would be
> necessary to make such a project possible from a technical perspective...
> even though I can see Wikipedia benefiting immensely from the same tech.
>
> Imagine going onto a single, non-language specific Wikipedia, simply
> selecting your language from a list, and having every major article appear
> in your selected language. You switch to another language, the same article
> appears, with the same text, merely having been translated by users.


> Translation is MUCH easier than writing a Featured Article quality article
> from scratch (FA articles take a surprising amount of effort and time to
> write),

Then you don't know what translation is, or just you are no translator
at all. It is bridging one culture to another, and as creative and
productive as writing from scratch. I think I don't need to speak how
it is time-consuming work.


 so this would significantly decrease the current duplication of

> effort that is taking place in the "separate but equal" multiple-languages
> version of the mediawiki software that we currently use. In such a model of
> Wikipedia much more emphasis would be placed on the translation of other
> language's articles into every language than is currently the case. (For
> instance, a while ago I was looking up some special type of Russian Perogie.
> The article I wanted doesn't exist on English Wikipedia, but it does exist
> on Russian Wikipedia... which was useless to me, because I don't speak
> Russian. Thankfully Google Translate came to the rescue... sorta.) ;-)
>
> Back to Wikinews and the issue at hand. As a Wikinews specific example of
> how this could eventually work: you have an article about something that
> happened in France, investigated by French Wikinewies, originally written in
> French, and then translated into Dutch, English, German, and Mandarin by
> other Wikinewsies. That type of coordination is currently *possible*, but
> it's much more difficult to manage than it would be in a better designed,
> multi-frontpage, auto-language selection multi-lingual site (based on your
> preferences for logged in users, or a per-visit dropdown language selection
> system (for non-logged in users)). Right now if you try to do that kind of
> thing you're attempting to coordinate 20 different people spread across 10
> different sites; it's nigh-on impossible in practice, unfortunately.
>
> Because of the technical issues that would need to be addressed, at the
> present time I'd have to say that a multi-lingual version of Wikinews simply
> isn't practical. Combining the efforts of Wikinewies everywhere and reducing
> our duplication of effort via translation of locally investigated and
> written articles would be a great idea, but it's not something that will
> happen soon. That's something for the far future (10 or 15 years from now
> maybe), not for the immediate future. Wikinews as a whole has bigger things
> to worry about than that, for the moment.
>
> Maybe though, Wikipedia doesn't?
>
> Gopher65
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:32 AM
> To: "Wikinews mailing list" <[hidden email]>; "Wikimedia
> Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Wikinews-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews
>
>> I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
>> requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
>> need wider discussion for concluding them.
>>
>> One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
>> here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
>> those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].
>>
>> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
>> [2] -
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikinews-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikinews-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov
Whilst the idea of having a truly multi-lingual Wikinews with articles published in numerous languages is a good one, I fear that the practicalities make this somewhat idealistic. I think infact we should actually be rather proud that we manage to get so many articles published in so many articles as it is, which given the circumstances is rather amazing.

As someone who is multilingual and used to be pretty active on Wikinews (regretfully temporarily taking a break), I have been asked to translate articles from time to time. On the rare occasion that I have had the time _in addition_ to writing my own articles, it has been time consuming to say the least, and on most occasions I have had to decline requests to translate other people's articles because I simply didn't have the time to write my own.

It should not be forgotten that contrary to other sister projects where time is not a factor, it is a major one for Wikinews, where news that is over three days old is not published.

Finally the number of Wikinewsies is _incredibly_ small and we truly bi-, tri- and quadri-lingual Wikinewsies are a very rare breed indeed.

User:AlexandrDmitri on all Wikimedia Foundation projects

cc Foundation list per initial email as the replies seem only to be going to the Wikinews list


2010/3/1 Aphaia <[hidden email]>
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:59 AM, gopher65 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You know, I've actually been recently considering an idea for combining all
> of the Wikinews language editions into a single project. However, the code
> required to accomplish this in a reasonable fashion does not currently
> exist, and I don't think that anyone at the foundation would be willing to
> jump in and volunteer the significant amount of dev time that would be
> necessary to make such a project possible from a technical perspective...
> even though I can see Wikipedia benefiting immensely from the same tech.
>
> Imagine going onto a single, non-language specific Wikipedia, simply
> selecting your language from a list, and having every major article appear
> in your selected language. You switch to another language, the same article
> appears, with the same text, merely having been translated by users.


> Translation is MUCH easier than writing a Featured Article quality article
> from scratch (FA articles take a surprising amount of effort and time to
> write),

Then you don't know what translation is, or just you are no translator
at all. It is bridging one culture to another, and as creative and
productive as writing from scratch. I think I don't need to speak how
it is time-consuming work.


 so this would significantly decrease the current duplication of
> effort that is taking place in the "separate but equal" multiple-languages
> version of the mediawiki software that we currently use. In such a model of
> Wikipedia much more emphasis would be placed on the translation of other
> language's articles into every language than is currently the case. (For
> instance, a while ago I was looking up some special type of Russian Perogie.
> The article I wanted doesn't exist on English Wikipedia, but it does exist
> on Russian Wikipedia... which was useless to me, because I don't speak
> Russian. Thankfully Google Translate came to the rescue... sorta.) ;-)
>
> Back to Wikinews and the issue at hand. As a Wikinews specific example of
> how this could eventually work: you have an article about something that
> happened in France, investigated by French Wikinewies, originally written in
> French, and then translated into Dutch, English, German, and Mandarin by
> other Wikinewsies. That type of coordination is currently *possible*, but
> it's much more difficult to manage than it would be in a better designed,
> multi-frontpage, auto-language selection multi-lingual site (based on your
> preferences for logged in users, or a per-visit dropdown language selection
> system (for non-logged in users)). Right now if you try to do that kind of
> thing you're attempting to coordinate 20 different people spread across 10
> different sites; it's nigh-on impossible in practice, unfortunately.
>
> Because of the technical issues that would need to be addressed, at the
> present time I'd have to say that a multi-lingual version of Wikinews simply
> isn't practical. Combining the efforts of Wikinewies everywhere and reducing
> our duplication of effort via translation of locally investigated and
> written articles would be a great idea, but it's not something that will
> happen soon. That's something for the far future (10 or 15 years from now
> maybe), not for the immediate future. Wikinews as a whole has bigger things
> to worry about than that, for the moment.
>
> Maybe though, Wikipedia doesn't?
>
> Gopher65
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:32 AM
> To: "Wikinews mailing list" <[hidden email]>; "Wikimedia
> Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Wikinews-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews
>
>> I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
>> requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
>> need wider discussion for concluding them.
>>
>> One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
>> here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
>> those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].
>>
>> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
>> [2] -
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikinews-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikinews-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l


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Re: Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wikinews

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
> requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
> need wider discussion for concluding them.
>
> One of such requests is for multilingual Wikinews [2]. Please, discuss
> here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wikinews-l to poke
> those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2].
>
> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
> [2] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikinews_multilingual
>

The request has been rejected as invalid. The explanation for
rejection is below:

According to the Language proposal policy, Language committee may
approve just a project which intends to be written in one language.
Thus, this proposal is invalid. If you want to create multilingual
Wikinews, please create a page Multilingual Wikinews and start
discussion about the idea at wikinews-l. --Millosh  06:16, 3 March
2010 (UTC)

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