Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

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Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Brion Vibber-3
Firefox 3.5 will be launching this summer (betas available now!) and
will include support for downloading and using regular TrueType and
OpenType fonts referenced from a style sheet:

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/@font-face

This is also supported in Safari 3.1 and later, and apparently by the
latest Opera betas as well.

It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
download and install a font:
http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help


Internet Explorer afaik still only supports converted embedded (EOT)
font files, which would require that we can either get our hands on an
existing .eot version of each free font, or be able to generate one
ourselves.

Note there's an old feature request with an .eot copy of a Tamil font:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2361

but we never had authorship info on the font or cross-browser support,
since .eot is only supported by IE.

-- brion

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Remember the dot
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
> way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
> Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
> top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
> download and install a font:
> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help
>

Maybe you could enable TTF file uploads on Wikimedia projects for us?

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

lee worden-2
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber-3
On Mon, 4 May 2009, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
> It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
> way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
> Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
> top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
> download and install a font:
> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help

It sounds like a good way to provide the STIX fonts for rendering MathML
as well, since currently one has to point users to a font help page just
like that, and hope they don't give up before they get to installing the
fonts and seeing the nice-looking equations.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

K. Peachey
In reply to this post by Remember the dot
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Remember the dot
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
>> way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
>> Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
>> top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
>> download and install a font:
>> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help
>>
>
> Maybe you could enable TTF file uploads on Wikimedia projects for us?
>
> --
> Remember the dot
That might cause issues and such since most creators want their
readmes and such stored with them (and i've seen a few free ones with
additonal rules against using in webpages as such so we would need to
be aware of that as well), i think it might be better just to find the
ones we want and ask the dev's to set them up for us.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber-3
Hoi,
Would this also be a solution for the problem we have with supporting
languages like Lingala ? The standard Latin fonts do not suffice.
Thanks,
      GerardM

2009/5/5 Brion Vibber <[hidden email]>

> Firefox 3.5 will be launching this summer (betas available now!) and
> will include support for downloading and using regular TrueType and
> OpenType fonts referenced from a style sheet:
>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/@font-face
>
> This is also supported in Safari 3.1 and later, and apparently by the
> latest Opera betas as well.
>
> It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
> way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
> Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
> top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
> download and install a font:
> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help
>
>
> Internet Explorer afaik still only supports converted embedded (EOT)
> font files, which would require that we can either get our hands on an
> existing .eot version of each free font, or be able to generate one
> ourselves.
>
> Note there's an old feature request with an .eot copy of a Tamil font:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2361
>
> but we never had authorship info on the font or cross-browser support,
> since .eot is only supported by IE.
>
> -- brion
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by K. Peachey
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:50 AM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That might cause issues and such since most creators want their
> readmes and such stored with them (and i've seen a few free ones with
> additonal rules against using in webpages as such so we would need to
> be aware of that as well),

Those would, obviously, be forbidden to upload.  As with any uploaded
media, all uploaded fonts would need to be explicitly and irrevocably
released under a free license, which means no requirements for readmes
or restrictions on type of use.

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Would this also be a solution for the problem we have with supporting
> languages like Lingala ? The standard Latin fonts do not suffice.

Yes, if free fonts are available that are superior, and if users use a
suitably modern browser.  I believe the latest version of Safari would
work, and so would the upcoming Firefox 3.5.  If we have EOT support,
all versions of Internet Explorer would work going back a long way.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Nikola Smolenski
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber-3
Brion Vibber wrote:
> It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
> way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
> Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
> top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
> download and install a font:
> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help

Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Hoi,
Do you agree with me that a font is superior when it has a better coverage?
In my opinion the only thing that really counts is that we support the
characters of the languages we support. All the rest is ballast preventing
us from fulfilling our primary objective.
Thanks,
       GerardM

2009/5/5 Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]<Simetrical%[hidden email]>
>

> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:50 AM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > That might cause issues and such since most creators want their
> > readmes and such stored with them (and i've seen a few free ones with
> > additonal rules against using in webpages as such so we would need to
> > be aware of that as well),
>
> Those would, obviously, be forbidden to upload.  As with any uploaded
> media, all uploaded fonts would need to be explicitly and irrevocably
> released under a free license, which means no requirements for readmes
> or restrictions on type of use.
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Would this also be a solution for the problem we have with supporting
> > languages like Lingala ? The standard Latin fonts do not suffice.
>
> Yes, if free fonts are available that are superior, and if users use a
> suitably modern browser.  I believe the latest version of Safari would
> work, and so would the upcoming Firefox 3.5.  If we have EOT support,
> all versions of Internet Explorer would work going back a long way.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Bilal Abdul Kader
In reply to this post by Nikola Smolenski
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brion Vibber wrote:
> > It might be helpful for some language wikis to link in a free font this
> > way, when standard fonts supporting their script are often unavailable.
> > Right now on such sites there tends to be a little English link at the
> > top such as 'font help' leading to a page like this telling you how to
> > download and install a font:
> > http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:Font_help
>
> Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
> character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.
>
> This should be pushed to the client end I think because even the page uses
a rare character, the decision should be for the browser to load the font
and not for mediaWiki to push it. Some front end js can do the task well.
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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Nikola Smolenski
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
> character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.

The problem with this is that it means the characters may be displayed
in a different font even if the default font actually contains them,
which is needlessly ugly.  We can't say "Use this font, but only if
the font that would otherwise be used doesn't contain character X".
It's an okay tradeoff for languages where very few computers can read
them otherwise by default, but it needs to be used with care.

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Do you agree with me that a font is superior when it has a better coverage?

The user should be able to use whatever font they like.  Wikipedia
currently does not specify a default font; the user's default is used.
 This will often be the default system sans-serif font, which will
blend in nicely.  Forcing a different font should only be done with
excellent reason (such as if text would otherwise show up as gibberish
on nearly all computers).

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Sans serif is a font family. It does not mean that the font itself contains
the characters to show a language properly. As it is, I am not aware that
Lingala is supported by any modern browser in the configuration we use our
fonts in.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/5/5 Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]<Simetrical%[hidden email]>
>

> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
> > character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.
>
> The problem with this is that it means the characters may be displayed
> in a different font even if the default font actually contains them,
> which is needlessly ugly.  We can't say "Use this font, but only if
> the font that would otherwise be used doesn't contain character X".
> It's an okay tradeoff for languages where very few computers can read
> them otherwise by default, but it needs to be used with care.
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Do you agree with me that a font is superior when it has a better
> coverage?
>
> The user should be able to use whatever font they like.  Wikipedia
> currently does not specify a default font; the user's default is used.
>  This will often be the default system sans-serif font, which will
> blend in nicely.  Forcing a different font should only be done with
> excellent reason (such as if text would otherwise show up as gibberish
> on nearly all computers).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Remember the dot
I've formally requested that TTF file uploads be enabled at
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18692

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Nikola Smolenski
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
>> character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.
>
> The problem with this is that it means the characters may be displayed
> in a different font even if the default font actually contains them,
> which is needlessly ugly.  We can't say "Use this font, but only if
> the font that would otherwise be used doesn't contain character X".

Or can we? I will experiment a bit, but I guess something like this
would work:

@font-face {
   font-family: glagolitic;
   src: url("http://upload.wikimedia.org/fonts/glagolitic.ttf");
}

body { font-family: sans-serif, glagolitic }

If default sans-serif font doesn't have Glagolitic characters, Firefox
will use any available font that has them, that should include
glagolitic.ttf .

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Aryeh Gregor
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> body { font-family: sans-serif, glagolitic }

I don't think this actually works.  sans-serif means "pick the
characters from any available sans-serif font".  Anything after it
should therefore be ignored.  I think.  I could be wrong.

CSS2.1 seems vague on whether you should pick fonts on a
character-by-character basis, or just pick the first font available
and use it for everything.  Firefox usually tries fallback, but last I
checked, IE doesn't.  (Last I checked was probably IE6, though.)

> If default sans-serif font doesn't have Glagolitic characters, Firefox
> will use any available font that has them, that should include
> glagolitic.ttf .

Does that actually work, though, in the betas?

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Brion Vibber-3
In reply to this post by Remember the dot
El 5/6/09 12:02 PM, Remember the dot escribió:
> I've formally requested that TTF file uploads be enabled at
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18692

Probably no point to that, since fonts are restricted by the same-origin
rule (at least in Firefox). They'll need to be hosted along with the web
servers, or else we'd have to jump through some hoops for magic headers
to support cross-site includes, which may or may not be a good idea.

-- brion

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Remember the dot
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> El 5/6/09 12:02 PM, Remember the dot escribió:
>> I've formally requested that TTF file uploads be enabled at
>> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18692
>
> Probably no point to that, since fonts are restricted by the same-origin
> rule (at least in Firefox). They'll need to be hosted along with the web
> servers, or else we'd have to jump through some hoops for magic headers
> to support cross-site includes, which may or may not be a good idea.

Good point. Personally, I'd use the magic headers. It looks like
"Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://upload.wikimedia.org" would do
the trick.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Remember the dot
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Remember the dot
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Good point. Personally, I'd use the magic headers. It looks like
> "Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://upload.wikimedia.org" would do
> the trick.

Ah shoot, I'm sorry. That's incorrect, instead we'd have to list every
Wikimedia server in upload.wikimedia.org's Access-Control-Allow-Origin
headers. That wouldn't work very well. You're right: we'd have to host
the fonts with the web servers themselves.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Remember the dot
We could also use "Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *" if hotlinking isn't
a concern. Because we don't worry about hotlinking with other file
types, this might be the best option.

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Brion Vibber-3
El 5/6/09 1:59 PM, Remember the dot escribió:
> We could also use "Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *" if hotlinking isn't
> a concern. Because we don't worry about hotlinking with other file
> types, this might be the best option.

More fun background on this here:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTTP_access_control

Probably safe. Probably. :)

-- brion

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Re: Downloadable client fonts to aid language script support?

Platonides
In reply to this post by Nikola Smolenski
Nikola Smolenski wrote:
> Even more helpful: MediaWiki could determine if a page uses a rare
> character upon save and link to appropriate fonts.

Note that one interwiki in a rare font shouldn't produce a font download.


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