Drop support for PHP 5.3

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Drop support for PHP 5.3

Trevor Parscal-2
PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array
syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing
end of life.

I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.

- Trevor

[1] http://php.net/manual/en/migration54.new-features.php
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Chad
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:

> PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array
> syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing
> end of life.
>
> I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.
>
>
I'm in favor of bumping to a 5.4 minimum as well since 5.3 is
approaching its end of life upstream.

As I pointed out on IRC, the question is how quickly the distros
will follow. Right now the current Ubuntu LTS has us stuck on
5.3.something. It looks like 14.04 will have 5.5.8 which is nice
but not out until April :)

-Chad
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Tyler Romeo
In reply to this post by Trevor Parscal-2
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.


Agreed, but right now both Debian oldstable and Ubuntu LTS are running on
PHP 5.3. I'm pretty sure (last time I checked) that both reach their EOL
sometime this summer, like in July or something. Once that happens we can
safely stop supporting 5.3 with the next MediaWiki release.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Faidon Liambotis
In reply to this post by Chad
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 09:51:25AM -0800, Chad wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:
> > PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array
> > syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing
> > end of life.
> >
> > I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.
> >
> >
> I'm in favor of bumping to a 5.4 minimum as well since 5.3 is
> approaching its end of life upstream.
>
> As I pointed out on IRC, the question is how quickly the distros
> will follow. Right now the current Ubuntu LTS has us stuck on
> 5.3.something. It looks like 14.04 will have 5.5.8 which is nice
> but not out until April :)

That is not actually the holdup (or if it is, it's a miscommunication
and it shouldn't be). We can backport/build/maintain PHP packages
ourselves. We, in fact, run our own 5.3 packages with some minor changes
compared to precise's.

Last time we were discussing PHP 5.4 it was quite a while ago but I
remember hearing that we'd need to do some porting work for our
extensions. Plus, we we re having a debate we were having about Suhosin
that I don't think ended up anywhere :)

However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now
instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources
to move to PHP 5.4 right now.

Faidon

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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Marc-Andre
On 02/18/2014 01:10 PM, Faidon Liambotis wrote:
> However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now
> instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources
> to move to PHP 5.4 right now.

My understanding is that those are two orthogonal questions.  I don't
think we plan on demanding that external users all use HHVM to run
Mediawiki, so the question "which is the least version of PHP supported
by core" remains valid.

-- Marc


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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Bryan Davis
In reply to this post by Tyler Romeo
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.
>
>
> Agreed, but right now both Debian oldstable and Ubuntu LTS are running on
> PHP 5.3. I'm pretty sure (last time I checked) that both reach their EOL
> sometime this summer, like in July or something. Once that happens we can
> safely stop supporting 5.3 with the next MediaWiki release.

Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not
be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm
sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu
security team.

Bryan
--
Bryan Davis              Wikimedia Foundation    <[hidden email]>
[[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  Sr Software Engineer            Boise, ID USA
irc: bd808                                        v:415.839.6885 x6855

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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Tyler Romeo
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Bryan Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not
> be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm
> sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu
> security team.
>

OK, so Ubuntu Server LTS will EOL in April 2017. Additionally, MediaWiki
1.23 LTS (our next release) is planned to EOL in May 2017. With that in
mind, I think it's fair to say that once 1.23 is released we will have the
opportunity to increase our PHP requirement.

I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd
definitely use:

   - Array literals
   - $this support in closures
   - Class member access based on expression
   - Class member access after instantiation
   - Function return value array dereferencing
   - The JsonSerializable interface
   - Improved parse_url() behavior

Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new
feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits
everywhere.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Bryan Davis
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Bryan Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not
>> be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm
>> sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu
>> security team.
>>
>
> OK, so Ubuntu Server LTS will EOL in April 2017. Additionally, MediaWiki
> 1.23 LTS (our next release) is planned to EOL in May 2017. With that in
> mind, I think it's fair to say that once 1.23 is released we will have the
> opportunity to increase our PHP requirement.
>
> I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd
> definitely use:
>
>    - Array literals
>    - $this support in closures
>    - Class member access based on expression
>    - Class member access after instantiation
>    - Function return value array dereferencing
>    - The JsonSerializable interface
>    - Improved parse_url() behavior
>
> Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new
> feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits
> everywhere.

+1 on making the break in 1.24. I actually have a note on my desktop
reminding me to write an RFC on that very topic. We should wait to see
but I'm guessing we can skip right over 5.4 and move up to 5.5 when we
drop 5.3 support.

Bryan
--
Bryan Davis              Wikimedia Foundation    <[hidden email]>
[[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]]  Sr Software Engineer            Boise, ID USA
irc: bd808                                        v:415.839.6885 x6855

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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Daniel Friesen-2
In reply to this post by Tyler Romeo
On 2014-02-18 4:41 PM, Tyler Romeo wrote:

> I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd
> definitely use:
>
>    - Array literals
>    - $this support in closures
>    - Class member access based on expression
>    - Class member access after instantiation
>    - Function return value array dereferencing
>    - The JsonSerializable interface
>    - Improved parse_url() behavior
>
> Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new
> feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits
> everywhere.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
Actually we'll have even more uses for PHP 5.4:
- <?= ?> in skins instead of <?php echo ?> where we do do that.
- No more need for safe_mode checks
- We can kill our register_global checks in WebStart.php
- No more magic_quotes_gpc handling in WebRequestk

But also we do already have a use for traits, RequestContext.
We extend from ContextSource because we can't currently use a
TContextSource trait.
This is fine for the classes that have no parent class but we've run
into classes that already have prior obligations.
In those instances some code duplication has been necessary.

^_^ With traits we can redefine the ContextSource class as the following
and make anything duplicating ContextSource code use a trait.

class ContextSource implements IContextSource {
        use TContextSource;
}

~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://danielfriesen.name/]

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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by Trevor Parscal-2
Le 18/02/2014 18:48, Trevor Parscal a écrit :
> PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array
> syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing
> end of life.
>
> I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible.

Hello,

One of the requirement we have enforced is that MediaWiki must be
installable on Debian stable.  The current stable version ships 5.4 now
so that is a fulfilled requirement.


Ubuntu Precise LTS has php 5.3. We have a MediaWiki LTS as well, so
people can use that instead of the latest version.

We want MediaWiki to be installable on as many hosting services as
possible. I do not have any metric, but hopefully most services come
with php 5.4 nowadays.  As for Ubuntu, if someone hosting service still
use php 5.3, they can use the MediaWiki LTS version.


A requirement Wikimedia has nowadays is that the code MUST be supported
with HipHop Virtual Machine.  As an example, I do not think it
implements the SPL classes. So that needs to be carefully checked.



Another very important point is whether we want to actually use 5.4 new
features.  Reviewing the list of 5.3 new features:

* namespaces : we did not see a good use case for them

* Late Static Bindings : consensus that it is merely a workaround for
badly designed code

* jump labels : dinosaur will eat you http://www.xkcd.com/292/ ( I like
goto myself and yeah they have valid use cases ).

*  Closures (lambda/anonymous) : that made the code easier to follow
when using callbacks since the callbacks code is next to the caller.

* __callStatic() __invoke() : never seen that used in our code

* Constants declared with 'const' : we use define()

* short ternary operator '?:' : haven't seen it

* nested exceptions : maybe we end up using them somehow. Not sure.

* circular refs garbage collection : it is enabled by default

Of course you have some new functions and build-in classes.  But beside
that, we barely use any 5.3 new features.


I do not think this thread is a good opportunity to bikeshed/talk/reach
consensus about 5.4 features. That is eventually a can of worm that
would need to be opened and some consensus reached for each features.

The real blocker is hhvm matching 5.4 features.


List of new features:

 http://php.net/manual/en/migration53.new-features.php
 http://php.net/manual/en/migration54.new-features.php


--
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * short ternary operator '?:' : haven't seen it
>

It's being used in a few places; probably a variation that was equivalent
to isset( $foo ) ? $foo : $bar would see more use though.


--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Owen Davis-2
In reply to this post by Faidon Liambotis

On Feb 18, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Faidon Liambotis <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now
> instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources
> to move to PHP 5.4 right now.
>

Just as a data point, Wikia already runs php 5.4 in production.  If I remember correctly there were some things that had to be fixed around the (deprecated in 5.3) call time pass by reference “feature” being removed, but it wasn’t much effort at all.  
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

thingles
Regarding PHP 5.3 support, I put together a quick report in WikiApiary
showing the versions of PHP in use across wikis.

https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/PHP_Versions

In short, 5.3 is the most common PHP version used by a large, large
majority.

Three things to footnote in this data (and you could run additional
queries to get the real data for these).

1. WMF itself runs PHP 5.3, so that explodes the user count a lot. If
you excluded WMF (based on an assumption that WMF controls it so thus
could move to newer version easily) it lowers the active users on 5.3
dramatically.

2. A large percentage of the 5.3 install base is there because that is
what Ubuntu is distributing (my farm is on 5.3 for this reason). If
there was an easy PPA solution to move from 5.3 to 5.4 for Ubuntu 12.04
that would also lessen the dependency on 5.3.

3. If you queried by Netblock you could identify how many of these 5.3
users are on Bluehost, Dreamhost or other system where they have no
ability to upgrade, the hosted would have to do that.

All data (except time series edit data) for WikiApiary is stored as
semantic properties, so all of these things are available for #ask
queries.

--
  Jamie Thingelstad
  [hidden email]

On Wed, Feb 19, 2014, at 11:01 AM, Owen Davis wrote:

>
> On Feb 18, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Faidon Liambotis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now
> > instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources
> > to move to PHP 5.4 right now.
> >
>
> Just as a data point, Wikia already runs php 5.4 in production.  If I
> remember correctly there were some things that had to be fixed around the
> (deprecated in 5.3) call time pass by reference “feature” being removed,
> but it wasn’t much effort at all.  
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Markus Krötzsch-2
On 20/02/14 05:17, Jamie Thingelstad wrote:

> Regarding PHP 5.3 support, I put together a quick report in WikiApiary
> showing the versions of PHP in use across wikis.
>
> https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/PHP_Versions
>
> In short, 5.3 is the most common PHP version used by a large, large
> majority.
>
> Three things to footnote in this data (and you could run additional
> queries to get the real data for these).
>
> 1. WMF itself runs PHP 5.3, so that explodes the user count a lot. If
> you excluded WMF (based on an assumption that WMF controls it so thus
> could move to newer version easily) it lowers the active users on 5.3
> dramatically.
>
> 2. A large percentage of the 5.3 install base is there because that is
> what Ubuntu is distributing (my farm is on 5.3 for this reason). If
> there was an easy PPA solution to move from 5.3 to 5.4 for Ubuntu 12.04
> that would also lessen the dependency on 5.3.

FWIW, the next long-term support (LTS) version of Ubuntu is due on 17
April this year. It ships with PHP 5.5. This would be the Ubuntu version
that hosters would want to upgrade to. However, the previous LTS version
will still be supported until April 2017, so there is no urge for people
to upgrade.

Cheers,

Markus

>
> 3. If you queried by Netblock you could identify how many of these 5.3
> users are on Bluehost, Dreamhost or other system where they have no
> ability to upgrade, the hosted would have to do that.
>
> All data (except time series edit data) for WikiApiary is stored as
> semantic properties, so all of these things are available for #ask
> queries.
>


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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Trevor Parscal-2
Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything Ubuntu
still supports?

Is there a rule?

- Trevor


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:25 AM, Markus Krötzsch <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 20/02/14 05:17, Jamie Thingelstad wrote:
>
>> Regarding PHP 5.3 support, I put together a quick report in WikiApiary
>> showing the versions of PHP in use across wikis.
>>
>> https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/PHP_Versions
>>
>> In short, 5.3 is the most common PHP version used by a large, large
>> majority.
>>
>> Three things to footnote in this data (and you could run additional
>> queries to get the real data for these).
>>
>> 1. WMF itself runs PHP 5.3, so that explodes the user count a lot. If
>> you excluded WMF (based on an assumption that WMF controls it so thus
>> could move to newer version easily) it lowers the active users on 5.3
>> dramatically.
>>
>> 2. A large percentage of the 5.3 install base is there because that is
>> what Ubuntu is distributing (my farm is on 5.3 for this reason). If
>> there was an easy PPA solution to move from 5.3 to 5.4 for Ubuntu 12.04
>> that would also lessen the dependency on 5.3.
>>
>
> FWIW, the next long-term support (LTS) version of Ubuntu is due on 17
> April this year. It ships with PHP 5.5. This would be the Ubuntu version
> that hosters would want to upgrade to. However, the previous LTS version
> will still be supported until April 2017, so there is no urge for people to
> upgrade.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>> 3. If you queried by Netblock you could identify how many of these 5.3
>> users are on Bluehost, Dreamhost or other system where they have no
>> ability to upgrade, the hosted would have to do that.
>>
>> All data (except time series edit data) for WikiApiary is stored as
>> semantic properties, so all of these things are available for #ask
>> queries.
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Chad
Maybe not a firm rule, but something worth being aware of. Lots
of people use LTSes, so it'd be nice to not break them without
some upgrade path :)

-Chad

On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything Ubuntu
> still supports?
>
> Is there a rule?
>
> - Trevor
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:25 AM, Markus Krötzsch <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 20/02/14 05:17, Jamie Thingelstad wrote:
> >
> >> Regarding PHP 5.3 support, I put together a quick report in WikiApiary
> >> showing the versions of PHP in use across wikis.
> >>
> >> https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/PHP_Versions
> >>
> >> In short, 5.3 is the most common PHP version used by a large, large
> >> majority.
> >>
> >> Three things to footnote in this data (and you could run additional
> >> queries to get the real data for these).
> >>
> >> 1. WMF itself runs PHP 5.3, so that explodes the user count a lot. If
> >> you excluded WMF (based on an assumption that WMF controls it so thus
> >> could move to newer version easily) it lowers the active users on 5.3
> >> dramatically.
> >>
> >> 2. A large percentage of the 5.3 install base is there because that is
> >> what Ubuntu is distributing (my farm is on 5.3 for this reason). If
> >> there was an easy PPA solution to move from 5.3 to 5.4 for Ubuntu 12.04
> >> that would also lessen the dependency on 5.3.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, the next long-term support (LTS) version of Ubuntu is due on 17
> > April this year. It ships with PHP 5.5. This would be the Ubuntu version
> > that hosters would want to upgrade to. However, the previous LTS version
> > will still be supported until April 2017, so there is no urge for people
> to
> > upgrade.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
> >
> >> 3. If you queried by Netblock you could identify how many of these 5.3
> >> users are on Bluehost, Dreamhost or other system where they have no
> >> ability to upgrade, the hosted would have to do that.
> >>
> >> All data (except time series edit data) for WikiApiary is stored as
> >> semantic properties, so all of these things are available for #ask
> >> queries.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Ryan Lane-2
In reply to this post by Trevor Parscal-2
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything Ubuntu
> still supports?
>
> Is there a rule?
>
>
We should strongly consider ensuring that the latest stable releases of
Ubuntu and probably RHEL (or maybe fedora) can run MediaWiki.

- Ryan
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

James Forrester-4
On 20 February 2014 15:34, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything Ubuntu
> > still supports?
> >
> > Is there a rule?
> >
>
> We should strongly consider ensuring that the latest stable releases of
> Ubuntu and probably RHEL (or maybe fedora) can run MediaWiki.
>

​Is that a "no, only ​the latest stable releases", or "yes, the latest
stable releases and also the LTS releases"?

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, VisualEditor
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

[hidden email] | @jdforrester
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Ryan Lane-2
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:58 PM, James Forrester
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 20 February 2014 15:34, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything
> Ubuntu
> > > still supports?
> > >
> > > Is there a rule?
> > >
> >
> > We should strongly consider ensuring that the latest stable releases of
> > Ubuntu and probably RHEL (or maybe fedora) can run MediaWiki.
> >
>
> Is that a "no, only the latest stable releases", or "yes, the latest
> stable releases and also the LTS releases"?
>
>
If it isn't an LTS it isn't a stable release.

- Ryan
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Re: Drop support for PHP 5.3

Techman224-3
Let me put this out there so there isn’t confusion. The regular 6 month releases of Ubuntu are the stable releases. A LTS release is released every two years on the same cycle as regular Ubuntu releases. A LTS release is certainly more stable than regular releases, but not calling regular releases stable is a bit misleading.

Techman224

On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:58 PM, James Forrester
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On 20 February 2014 15:34, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Trevor Parscal <[hidden email]
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is that the rule then, we have to make MediaWiki work on anything
>> Ubuntu
>>>> still supports?
>>>>
>>>> Is there a rule?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We should strongly consider ensuring that the latest stable releases of
>>> Ubuntu and probably RHEL (or maybe fedora) can run MediaWiki.
>>>
>>
>> Is that a "no, only the latest stable releases", or "yes, the latest
>> stable releases and also the LTS releases"?
>>
>>
> If it isn't an LTS it isn't a stable release.
>
> - Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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