Editors not understanding the context?

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Editors not understanding the context?

Frederick Noronha
How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the
cultural context of what is being written?

I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat

It was deleted in no time, and the reason given?
(G11 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11>: Unambiguous
advertising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING> or
promotion)
Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...

Phew! FN

--
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_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

John Jackson
Hi Frederick -

I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist
subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!

Cordially,

John V. Jackson
http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
*فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the
> cultural context of what is being written?
>
> I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
>
> It was deleted in no time, and the reason given?
> (G11 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11>: Unambiguous
> advertising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING> or
> promotion)
> Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
>
> Phew! FN
>
> --
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/
> _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
> _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
> _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
> https://archive.org/details/goa1556
> _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Frederick Noronha
Thanks John. I don't intend to criticise anyone on the basis of age. Yet,
to me, it seems quite problematic when someone who understands little or
nothing about the cultural specificity of some distant geography goes about
deleting with such speed.

Sometime back, a prominent scholar who contributed immensely to the Konkani
language (a small language in coastal western India) was being dismissed as
non-notable. The reason? (i) The language is still largely not digitised
and (ii) even if it was, it would not be searchable via Google-type search
engines.

FN

On 13 September 2016 at 22:34, John Jackson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Frederick -
>
> I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
> ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist
> subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!
>
> Cordially,
>
> John V. Jackson
> http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com
>




--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
https://archive.org/details/goa1556
_/
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Pete Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by John Jackson
Hi Frederick,

I've looked at the article (I'm an admin) and I can understand your
frustration. However, it is generally the case with musicians -- no matter
what the cultural context -- that several high quality sources are needed
for the article to survive. You included one; were you planning to add
others? If so, I think the article will survive. I'd be happy to restore
the article if you intend to improve it with additional source material;
and I could help a bit with that as well. Let me know.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:04 AM, John Jackson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Frederick -
>
> I don't know how one can deal with it, but Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
> ignorant youngster "editors" who not only know little about any specialist
> subject but also nothing at all about how to deal with knowledge!
>
> Cordially,
>
> John V. Jackson
> http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
> *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the
> > cultural context of what is being written?
> >
> > I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India
> here:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
> >
> > It was deleted in no time, and the reason given?
> > (G11 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11>: Unambiguous
> > advertising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING> or
> > promotion)
> > Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
> >
> > Phew! FN
> >
> > --
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/
> > _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick
> http://goa1556.in
> > _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
> > _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
> > https://archive.org/details/goa1556
> > _/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Frederick Noronha
I have undeleted it and left notes. Please add more detail and
references.

Fred Bauder

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:26:55 +0530
   Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا
 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the
> cultural context of what is being written?
>
> I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India
>here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
>
> It was deleted in no time, and the reason given?
> (G11 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11>: Unambiguous
> advertising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING>
>or
> promotion)
> Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
>
> Phew! FN
>
> --
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/
> _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick 
>http://goa1556.in
> _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
> _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
> https://archive.org/details/goa1556
> _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l



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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Nkansah Rexford
So on what reasonable basis was it deleted in the first place, if the
article stood the chance of being improved?

The funny part sometimes is, an admin causes the mess, then another admin
comes rectifying it. As long as the admin who deleted the article didn't
reinstate it means, that admin will go deleting another article of similar
nature, then the cycle begins.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 5:17 PM FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have undeleted it and left notes. Please add more detail and
> references.
>
> Fred Bauder
>
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:26:55 +0530
>    Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا
>  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > How does one deal with editors who apparently do not understand the
> > cultural context of what is being written?
> >
> > I created a page for one of the most noted [[Fado]] singers in India
> >here:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sirsat
> >
> > It was deleted in no time, and the reason given?
> > (G11 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD#G11>: Unambiguous
> > advertising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTADVERTISING>
> >or
> > promotion)
> > Didn't even get a chance to contest or debate this...
> >
> > Phew! FN
> >
> > --
> >
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/
> > _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick
> >http://goa1556.in
> > _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
> > _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
> > https://archive.org/details/goa1556
> > _/
> >
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
--

rexford | sent from phone | khophi.co
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by John Jackson
I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that
it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In
particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony
disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably
place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply
not provided.

John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
> Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
> ignorant youngster "editors"

FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive_Summary#PROFILE

Nemo

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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Pete Forsyth-2
I agree with Nemo's assessment. I would not have speedy-deleted it myself,
but I do not have enough information to conclude that User:Seraphimblade
was right or wrong to do so. I don't know how extensively they sought
additional source material, etc. Unless somebody provides indication of
sufficient source materials, it's difficult for an admin (or anybody) to
assess notability, so often articles are deleted. The best way to avoid
speedy deletion of a new article -- and to help the users and
administrators who patrol such things to do the job well -- is to be sure
that multiple high quality sources are included in the first edit, along
with a clear statement of significance.

Looks like the article is well on its way now.
Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]


On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that
> it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In
> particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony
> disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably
> place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply not
> provided.
>
> John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
>
>> Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
>> ignorant youngster "editors"
>>
>
> FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive
> _Summary#PROFILE
>
> Nemo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
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Re: Editors not understanding the context?

Brill Lyle
FYI I added a template to the Talk page that I "borrowed" and blanked
from Lata Mangeshkar's page -- please update / customize as is helpful.

Recommend that to prevent speedy deletions
- work on article on namespace/draftspace if possible
- 5 to 10 (ideally) Wikilinked citations from large newspapers and articles
that are in-depth features on or with subject
- Infobox, even if minimally filled in, a shell is helpful
- Authority control (viaf.org, etc.)
- Commons template if media is available added to external links section
- Discogs, AllMusic etc. templates in external links -- re-inforces
notability

Recommend with new page creation that editor asks other experienced editors
to look at stub before making public. Also multiple editors working on a
page is ideal

Oftentimes it's the fact that the article isn't developed to the best of
its potential versus notability that is the culprit with speedy deletions.
We run into these a lot at the editathons here in NYC, and it's very
frustrating. Sorry you had to deal with this but glad to see it seems to be
up there okay now.

Best,

- Erika

*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>*

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree with Nemo's assessment. I would not have speedy-deleted it myself,
> but I do not have enough information to conclude that User:Seraphimblade
> was right or wrong to do so. I don't know how extensively they sought
> additional source material, etc. Unless somebody provides indication of
> sufficient source materials, it's difficult for an admin (or anybody) to
> assess notability, so often articles are deleted. The best way to avoid
> speedy deletion of a new article -- and to help the users and
> administrators who patrol such things to do the job well -- is to be sure
> that multiple high quality sources are included in the first edit, along
> with a clear statement of significance.
>
> Looks like the article is well on its way now.
> Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I think the article was most likely deleted for being a "sub-stub"
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub#Basic_information , in that
> > it didn't provide even the most basic information about the subject. In
> > particular, the first line mixes present ("is") and past (a colony
> > disbanded decades ago) making it impossible for the reader to reliably
> > place the subject in time. Context was not misunderstood; it was simply
> not
> > provided.
> >
> > John Jackson, 13/09/2016 19:04:
> >
> >> Wikipedia seems to be a gang of
> >> ignorant youngster "editors"
> >>
> >
> > FYI this stereotype has already been disproved in 2011.
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Survey_2011/Executive
> > _Summary#PROFILE
> >
> > Nemo
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
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