Edits by project and country of origin

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Edits by project and country of origin

Kelly Martin-3
Some interesting demographic data for main space edits to our largest
Wikipedia projects may be found at
http://meta.wkimedia.org/wiki/Edits_by_project_and_country_of_origin.

My thanks to Greg Maxwell for his invaluable assistance generating this data.

Some observations
* NL and BE are language sluts.
* ptwiki gets quite a bit more edits from BR than from PT, although
almost 75% of edits from PT are to ptwiki.
* MX has a depressingly low participation in eswiki.

Not reported in the data on the page, but possibly of interest: US
accounts for 27.61% of edits to the projects sampled, followed by DE
at 10.01% and GB at 8.15%.

Kelly
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

daniwo59
What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,  
which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99  
percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It  
would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in  
the sample.
 
Danny
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Edits by project and country of origin

David Gerard-2
On 04/09/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,
> which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99
> percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It
> would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in
> the sample.


It'll be amusing when US contributors are a minority on en:, they'll
find out how UK contributors sometimes feel ;-p


- d.
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by daniwo59
The same interest I have. Also a similar data of "edits within
country" in the Eastern Asia will be instructive.

Some Malay/Indonesia based editors I have known by chance said one
problem they faced was font (un)availability. They said that it was
relatively easy to find US-EN input method installed PCs but a bit
hard to find the local language font and input method, specially this
language is not "official language of governent". To promote such
projects, we need to provide information not directly related to wiki,
like "how you can get the font for your language", supposedly.

On 9/4/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,
> which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99
> percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It
> would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in
> the sample.
>
> Danny
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Edits by project and country of origin

daniwo59
In reply to this post by Kelly Martin-3
 
In a message dated 9/4/2006 7:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

It'll be  amusing when US contributors are a minority on en:, they'll
find out how UK  contributors sometimes feel ;-p





The real problem is the possibility  of English-as-a-second-language speakers
(or third or fourth language)  becoming a majority of users on en.wiki and
the impact that this would have  on the basic quality of writing. It has already
becoming an issue in  some areas of content related to India, where the prose
requires inordinate  cleanup just to make it legible.
 
To be clear, I am *not* saying that these contributions should be  
discouraged--only that they come at some cost.
 
Danny
(who has already spent some time adding spaces after  punctuation)
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Edits by project and country of origin

David Gerard-2
On 04/09/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The real problem is the possibility  of English-as-a-second-language speakers
> (or third or fourth language)  becoming a majority of users on en.wiki and
> the impact that this would have  on the basic quality of writing. It has already
> becoming an issue in  some areas of content related to India, where the prose
> requires inordinate  cleanup just to make it legible.
> To be clear, I am *not* saying that these contributions should be
> discouraged--only that they come at some cost.


Sounds like something for a specialised cleanup crew. The thing that
makes cleanup really horrible is when the articles are badly
structured as well - are these at least usable articles with only
grammar cleanup?


- d.
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Kelly Martin-3
In reply to this post by daniwo59
On 9/4/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,
> which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99
> percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It
> would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in
> the sample.

We haven't sampled the Indian native languages yet.  Please read the
disclaimers at the top of the page. :)

Kelly
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by daniwo59
[hidden email] wrote:

>What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,  
>which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99  
>percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It  
>would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in  
>the sample.
>
I agree.  The Indian situation is far more significant than the
Australian one.  It is understandable that there would be very little
participation from speakers of Australian Aboriginal languages because
each has such a tiny speaker base.  It is less understandable that
Indian languages with a million or more speakers have had so little
development.

When a person from India looking at Australian edits in other languages
than English presumes that we are talking about other European languages
this suggests that the influence of the Raj is still alive and well, and
that the educated people of India have bought into the idea that their
own native languages are somehow inferior.

Ec

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Edits by project and country of origin

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:

>On 04/09/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,
>>which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99
>>percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It
>>would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in
>>the sample.
>>    
>>
>It'll be amusing when US contributors are a minority on en:, they'll
>find out how UK contributors sometimes feel ;-p
>
In case you hadn't noticed there are more than two English speaking
countries in the world. :-(

Ec

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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Gregory Maxwell
In reply to this post by daniwo59
On 9/4/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,
> which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99
> percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It
> would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in
> the sample.

nonononoononon

Read the caveats on the page.

I didn't collect data for the native languages of India.

The data provided suggests that 99% of edits made by people in india
*to the wiki's I collected* were to en.  This is not at all surprising
since I didn't collect the wikis in the native languages.

I didn't bother reporting on smaller language Wikis because greater
care must be taken to avoid revealing personally identifiable
information.. but Kelly's reporting makes that information important
and addresses the privacy issues.

 I will collect this data later.
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

erikzachte
In reply to this post by Kelly Martin-3
Kelly:
> Some observations
> * NL and BE are language sluts.

Thanks for the compliment.
We can't help being better educated than most in this respect ;)
It is forced upon us. Blame the system.

In all honesty, did you remove bot edits?
The interwikibot (a Dutch invention) might be a partial explanation.

Cheers, Erik Zachte

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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> What I find especially interesting is not the native Asutralian languages,  
>> which have a handful of speakers only, but the fact that in India, over 99  
>> percent of people prefer to edit in English than in their native languages. It  
>> would be interesting to see the results once native languages are included in  
>> the sample.
>>
> I agree.  The Indian situation is far more significant than the
> Australian one.  It is understandable that there would be very little
> participation from speakers of Australian Aboriginal languages because
> each has such a tiny speaker base.  It is less understandable that
> Indian languages with a million or more speakers have had so little
> development.
>
> When a person from India looking at Australian edits in other languages
> than English presumes that we are talking about other European languages
> this suggests that the influence of the Raj is still alive and well, and
> that the educated people of India have bought into the idea that their
> own native languages are somehow inferior.
>
I would suggest that it's due to the caste system; the educated rich see
the native languages as being used by the lower castes and don't want
anything to do with them?

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Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Ray Saintonge
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>  
>
>>When a person from India looking at Australian edits in other languages
>>than English presumes that we are talking about other European languages
>>this suggests that the influence of the Raj is still alive and well, and
>>that the educated people of India have bought into the idea that their
>>own native languages are somehow inferior.
>>    
>>
>I would suggest that it's due to the caste system; the educated rich see
>the native languages as being used by the lower castes and don't want
>anything to do with them?
>
This is one plausible explanation.  So too is the idea that it is
important to have excellent English to get ahead in the world.  But
where will fluent Bengali, Tamil, Gujarati or even Hindi get you?

Ec

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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Przykuta
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)

> >
>
> I would suggest that it's due to the caste system; the educated rich see
> the native languages as being used by the lower castes and don't want
> anything to do with them?
>

Caste system is a closed system, Wikipedia is not. We can use bots to write articles in native languages. However number of articles is not a big problem. The big problem is number of users who know that languages.

Przykuta
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

KIZU Naoko
I talked with Indian editors why they prefered Enwiki and not so much
Hindi, which population is very large.

Each of them had different reasons, but no one mentioned caste
directly. If I recall correctly,

- If he or she writes in English, he would write to a broader audience
than in the Indian language. (Now you have to be aware that Enwiki is
the most frequently translated project among us). To spread
information, Enwiki is the most powerful tool on this project.
- Hindi is surely a big language, and he or she can speak it fruently,
but it isn't his or her native language at all; not attractive,
actually. In this point of view, writing in English as the second
language is more acceptable than writing in Hindi as the second
language for their nationalism.
- Of course, he or she is interested in their native language project.
But it is not so much a fun to work on a small project for some folks,
yes). On Enwiki he or she can find more easily  chances of
collaboration.
- And infrastructure. There are surely many so-and-so language
speakers, but they have no PC at home; and if they have, bandwidth is
narrow and edit is not confortable (I know an editor who was then
living in Thailand. He declined my nomination just because of the same
reason; "PPP on SLIP is too much hard for me to use sysop priviledge"
said he)

Some will be improved with good promotion, others will need efforts
extended from our virtualworld community. And it would be a possible
task and challange for the Foundation, but for that, a careful and
thoughtful approach, collaboration of other organizations both local
and global etc will be expected.

On 9/5/06, Przykuta <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > >
> >
> > I would suggest that it's due to the caste system; the educated rich see
> > the native languages as being used by the lower castes and don't want
> > anything to do with them?
> >
>
> Caste system is a closed system, Wikipedia is not. We can use bots to write articles in native languages. However number of articles is not a big problem. The big problem is number of users who know that languages.
>
> Przykuta
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

David Gerard-2
On 05/09/06, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some will be improved with good promotion, others will need efforts
> extended from our virtualworld community. And it would be a possible
> task and challange for the Foundation, but for that, a careful and
> thoughtful approach, collaboration of other organizations both local
> and global etc will be expected.


Has anyone asked Free Software Foundation India if they're interested
in this? It's not absolutely part of their primary mission, but open
content is quite related to open software, and it's under the GFDL,
which is an FSF licence; and pride in local content can be developed
into pride in local software (under a free licence), not least in
helping Mediawiki localisation.


- d.
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Re: Edits by project and country of origin

Mark
In reply to this post by KIZU Naoko
Aphaia wrote:

>I talked with Indian editors why they prefered Enwiki and not so much
>Hindi, which population is very large.
>  
>
Thanks for the survey, Aphaia!

I'll add my very small sample size of two Indian Wikipedians I'm friends
with,

* One major reason they edit Wikipedia is to spread Indian culture and
history, and that's most effective in English.
* Their university education is all in English, as with most prestigious
universities in India.  Therefore when editing articles on technical
subjects they have expertise in, they're most comfortable with
English---they don't even know how to say some technical things in Hindi.
* From a language-pride perspective, they don't have any interest in
Hindi, and actually some mild hostility---it's not their native
language, and English is actually preferable because it's "neutral" from
the perspective of domestic language politics.
* They do have more pride in their native languages (two different
ones), but say it's "not practical" to write encyclopedias in them---and
they know even fewer technical words in those languages than in Hindi.  
Plus they're even more useless for spreading Indian culture and history,
since nobody can read them except the people who already are part of the
culture.

(Obviously the usual caveats due to exceedingly small sample size.)

-Mark

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