Email list archives

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Email list archives

Andrew Turvey
I hope you don't mind my raising this issue here - it's a technical issue affecting all wikimedia email lists so I thought this would be as good a place as any.

When I subscribe to an email list I tend to get emails delivered, but I sometimes find it useful to view older emails on the archive. I know some people like to read all their emails on the archive, so this is also important for them. It is also useful when you have to make a publicly accessible reference to a previous post.

However, the standard interface and formatting in the archives is not particularly professional or up to date. For instance, looking at a recent message I posted to the WikimediaUK list:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/2009-August/004565.html 

The word wrapping is all over the shop and the formatting has all been stripped from the text. Some third party re-users do a better job, but it's still not all the way there:

The Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediauk-l@.../msg01470.html 
Google Mail: http://groups.google.com/group/wmf-wikimediauk-l/browse_thread/thread/a350852f8ad2ef63 

The line spacing looks funny with the first and you still lose the text formatting with the second.

Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?

Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.

Regards,

Andrew
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Tim Landscheidt
Andrew Turvey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [...]
> Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?

Every at most 72 characters, hit the key known as [Enter].
Before sending the mail, read it.

> Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.

No, reading has been known to man for some millennia, type-
writers since the early 19th century. Most modern user
agents and editors will provide functions though that can
help you with formatting your text. In Gnus for example, you
can take a look at auto-fill-mode (which is enabled by de-
fault).

Tim


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Andrew Turvey
---- "Tim Landscheidt" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Andrew Turvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?
>
> Every at most 72 characters, hit the key known as [Enter].
> Before sending the mail, read it.

Reads fine in my mail programme - it automatically word wraps. Expecting users to manually word wrap their own emails doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

> > Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.
>
> No, reading has been known to man for some millennia...

I meant the technology used to run the Wikimedia email lists, as I'm sure you realised!

Andrew
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Austin Hair
In reply to this post by Andrew Turvey
On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew
Turvey<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I hope you don't mind my raising this issue here - it's a technical issue affecting all wikimedia email lists so I thought this would be as good a place as any.

wikitech-l might be more appropriate, but I think I can shed some
light on your problem.

> The word wrapping is all over the shop and the formatting has all been stripped from the text. Some third party re-users do a better job, but it's still not all the way there:
>
> The Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediauk-l@.../msg01470.html
> Google Mail: http://groups.google.com/group/wmf-wikimediauk-l/browse_thread/thread/a350852f8ad2ef63
>
> The line spacing looks funny with the first and you still lose the text formatting with the second.
>
> Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?

I see that you're posting from gmail, so I'm guessing you compose mail
in "rich text" modeā€”mailman then strips your message of all html, but
doesn't re-format your text and add line breaks.  (And really, should
it?)

Our pipermail archives don't do this either, although (as in the
example you give above) others do by virtue of their CSS formatting.

Switching to "plain text" when composing an e-mail to a Wikimedia
mailing list is the best way to ensure that it's delivered as you
wrote it.  Mailman is actually doing you a favor by accommodating a
message in an invalid format (html), it just doesn't go as far as
you'd like.

> Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.

I'm not sure what technology you're talking about, but all of those
involved here are rather old and very well standardized.  RFC 1855
("Netiquette Guidelines"), dating back to 1995, suggests that you
limit your line length to 65 characters, and this has become the
accepted standard.  Most mail clients (gmail included) will wrap
plaintext messages at 65 or 72 characters automatically, but obviously
that's not needed (or wanted) for html.

Hope that helps,

Austin

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Everton Zanella Alvarenga-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Turvey
2009/8/15 Andrew Turvey <[hidden email]>:

> When I subscribe to an email list I tend to get emails delivered, but I sometimes find it useful to view older emails on the archive. I know some people like to read all their emails on the archive, so this is also important for them. It is also useful when you have to make a publicly accessible reference to a previous post.

We've, recently, discussed about this on WikimediaBR-l and someone
pointed out Google Groups archiving solution.

http://groups.google.com/group/wikimediabr-l/topics

For me the main usability of using Google Groups is for making
reference for a previous post. Someone even asked if Wikimedia would
mind about the archiving using a third party platform. Do you all
think there is some problem?

> The line spacing looks funny with the first and you still lose the text formatting with the second.

For me Google Groups do a good job and it's enough. It's software just
convert HTML formatted texts to plain texts, which I believe it more
adequate for email communication.

> Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?
>
> Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.

Two volunteers have said there are various scripts for archiving
mailing lists. I'll ask them. I believe it's important to maintain
archived Wikimedia mailing lists discussions on their own server, but
I don't see any problem in using third party platforms for purposes
such as making easier reference for the topics.

See you,

Tom

--
http://blogdotom.wordpress.com/sobre

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Pavlo Shevelo
> For me Google Groups do a good job and it's enough.

Yes, I would support the proposal to look at Google Groups (as
alternative mailing list platform) closer.
As we can see Wikimedia Brasil and Wikimedia UK are using that
platform and perhaps not only them (I'm pushing this platform for
Wikimedia Ukraine while we started from Mailman-based list, provided
by WMF).

> For me the main usability of using Google Groups is for making
> reference for a previous post.
Not just that. Some people appreciate option to reply to the posting
by web-interface (without necessity to copy-paste anything from one
browser window to another etc.).


> ... I believe it's important to maintain
> archived Wikimedia mailing lists discussions on their own server

If I'm not mistaken you mean that in any case (that is whatever
platform will be used) WMF should have ('maintain') archive of mailing
list on  WMF' own servers. Right?

And it that context
> Two volunteers have said there are various scripts for archiving
> mailing lists. I'll ask them.

are you talking about script which is able to copy (like backup or so)
Google Group archive to Mailman-formatted archive to be saved on WMF
servers?

Do you have any experience with usage of special Google group control
defining that mail archive will be out - on some proprietary  servers
(if I'm not mistaken in understanding meaning of that control)?

Regards,

Pavlo

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:05 AM, Everton Zanella
Alvarenga<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/8/15 Andrew Turvey <[hidden email]>:
>
>> When I subscribe to an email list I tend to get emails delivered, but I sometimes find it useful to view older emails on the archive. I know some people like to read all their emails on the archive, so this is also important for them. It is also useful when you have to make a publicly accessible reference to a previous post.
>
> We've, recently, discussed about this on WikimediaBR-l and someone
> pointed out Google Groups archiving solution.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/wikimediabr-l/topics
>
> For me the main usability of using Google Groups is for making
> reference for a previous post. Someone even asked if Wikimedia would
> mind about the archiving using a third party platform. Do you all
> think there is some problem?
>
>> The line spacing looks funny with the first and you still lose the text formatting with the second.
>
> For me Google Groups do a good job and it's enough. It's software just
> convert HTML formatted texts to plain texts, which I believe it more
> adequate for email communication.
>
>> Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?
>>
>> Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.
>
> Two volunteers have said there are various scripts for archiving
> mailing lists. I'll ask them. I believe it's important to maintain
> archived Wikimedia mailing lists discussions on their own server, but
> I don't see any problem in using third party platforms for purposes
> such as making easier reference for the topics.
>
> See you,
>
> Tom
>
> --
> http://blogdotom.wordpress.com/sobre
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Casey Brown-5
In reply to this post by Andrew Turvey
If I remember correctly, Fred Vassard was planning on cleaning up
mailman's search -- but I'm not sure if that's still this case.  (He's
CCed, not sure if he's on this mailing list or if he pays attention to
it.)

On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Andrew
Turvey<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hope you don't mind my raising this issue here - it's a technical issue affecting all wikimedia email lists so I thought this would be as good a place as any.
>
> When I subscribe to an email list I tend to get emails delivered, but I sometimes find it useful to view older emails on the archive. I know some people like to read all their emails on the archive, so this is also important for them. It is also useful when you have to make a publicly accessible reference to a previous post.
>
> However, the standard interface and formatting in the archives is not particularly professional or up to date. For instance, looking at a recent message I posted to the WikimediaUK list:
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/2009-August/004565.html
>
> The word wrapping is all over the shop and the formatting has all been stripped from the text. Some third party re-users do a better job, but it's still not all the way there:
>
> The Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediauk-l@.../msg01470.html
> Google Mail: http://groups.google.com/group/wmf-wikimediauk-l/browse_thread/thread/a350852f8ad2ef63
>
> The line spacing looks funny with the first and you still lose the text formatting with the second.
>
> Has anyone got any tips about how I can either format an email to begin with or view the email afterwards to solve this problem?
>
> Secondly, has this technology been developed recently? Seems it needs a bit of investment, or alternatively, we need to move over to a better third party platform like, perhaps, Yahoo Groups.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by Pavlo Shevelo

On 16 Aug 2009, at 03:58, Pavlo Shevelo wrote:

>> For me Google Groups do a good job and it's enough.
>
> Yes, I would support the proposal to look at Google Groups (as
> alternative mailing list platform) closer.
> As we can see Wikimedia Brasil and Wikimedia UK are using that
> platform and perhaps not only them (I'm pushing this platform for
> Wikimedia Ukraine while we started from Mailman-based list, provided
> by WMF).

WMUK still use the standard mailman platform [1]. As far as I know,  
it's just WMBR that are using google groups.

Does Mailman not provide any sort of templating options that make it  
more useable? I see that the wikien-l mailing list has a themed front  
page which greatly improves how that page looks [2], but that doesn't  
seem to extend any further than that page.

Mike

[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

Ivan Lanin-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Turvey
WMID is also using googlegroups. Sorry for top posting.

------Original Message------
From: Michael Peel
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
ReplyTo: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Email list archives
Sent: Aug 16, 2009 14:33


On 16 Aug 2009, at 03:58, Pavlo Shevelo wrote:

>> For me Google Groups do a good job and it's enough.
>
> Yes, I would support the proposal to look at Google Groups (as
> alternative mailing list platform) closer.
> As we can see Wikimedia Brasil and Wikimedia UK are using that
> platform and perhaps not only them (I'm pushing this platform for
> Wikimedia Ukraine while we started from Mailman-based list, provided
> by WMF).

WMUK still use the standard mailman platform [1]. As far as I know,  
it's just WMBR that are using google groups.

Does Mailman not provide any sort of templating options that make it  
more useable? I see that the wikien-l mailing list has a themed front  
page which greatly improves how that page looks [2], but that doesn't  
seem to extend any further than that page.

Mike

[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


--
Ivan Lanin. http://www.wikimedia.or.id
Dikirim dari BeriHitamĀ® 25704A0F
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Email list archives

James Forrester-2
In reply to this post by Everton Zanella Alvarenga-2
2009/8/15 Everton Zanella Alvarenga <[hidden email]>:
> We've, recently, discussed about this on WikimediaBR-l and someone
> pointed out Google Groups archiving solution.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/wikimediabr-l/topics
>
> For me the main usability of using Google Groups is for making
> reference for a previous post. Someone even asked if Wikimedia would
> mind about the archiving using a third party platform. Do you all
> think there is some problem?

As an explanation note of this, you can create a Google Group for a
mailing list hosted on another server (in this case, WMF's mailman
installation), appear as just a normal mailing list member; Google
Groups would then provide an easy way to search and understand users'
posts. It gets treated like an "announce" list (so you can't post to
it via Google Groups, just via the normal way of e-mail), but it's
better than nothing, and very easy to set up.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
[hidden email] | [hidden email]
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l