English Wikipedia blackout

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English Wikipedia blackout

Elias Friedman
Well I just saw the banner and found out about this blackout. I'm very
surprised that I couldn't find an announcement on this list that the
discussion had been taking place!

Since this thing was railroaded through in just 72 hours (gee, why couldn't
we have done that for Pending Changes?) I guess it's a bit pointless to
voice my opinon as it's a moot point- but I will anyway.

My reaction to the announcement was that it was like someone shutting off a
public utility! Not as bad as shutting off the electricity, but a big
P.I.T.A. like having the water shut off!

Wikipedia is more than just any other website- people use it in their daily
lives at home and at work. I fear this step will do more harm than good- to
both the project and to the people who use it.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Steve Summit
Elias Friedman wrote:
> My reaction to the announcement was that it was like someone shutting off a
> public utility! Not as bad as shutting off the electricity, but a big
> P.I.T.A. like having the water shut off!

That's part of the point, I think.  If these laws (the ones being
protested) are passed, the concern is that useful websites will get
shut down, for real, forever (and that this would be more than
just a one-day P.I.T.A.).

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Javier Bassi
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Since this thing was railroaded through in just 72 hours (...)

Discussion on this began on December 10 on Jimbo's talk page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=465086832

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Elias Friedman
On Jan 17, 2012 2:24 AM, "Javier Bassi" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > Since this thing was railroaded through in just 72 hours (...)
>
> Discussion on this began on December 10 on Jimbo's talk page.
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=465086832
>

Like I pay attention to the three-ring circus that all the cranks attracted
there make Jimbo's talk page into?

The discussion's public closing statement gave the figure of 72 hours,
that's where I got the number.

I am dismayed that such a radical undertaking wasn't mentioned on this
list, nor announced by a site banner for logged in users, nor even
canvassed out to user talk pages. This is especially in light of the short
time frame mentioned in the public closing statement - not everyone checks
their watchlist daily (I *assume* a notice was listed there at least!)

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Chris Grant
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> nor announced by a site banner for logged in users
>

There was one. Although, I didn't see it either (something to do with my
browser setup, the banner displayed in Firefox, but not Opera; my best
guess is it was something to do with one of the NoScript style extensions I
have installed in Opera).

- Chris
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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
On 17 January 2012 07:52, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 2012 2:24 AM, "Javier Bassi" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Discussion on this began on December 10 on Jimbo's talk page.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=465086832

> Like I pay attention to the three-ring circus that all the cranks attracted
> there make Jimbo's talk page into?


It was in the mass media as well. Lots of it.

Sorry you didn't hear about it before, but it's not clear what you
personally use as communication channels.

Someone should probably have mentioned it here ,yes.


- d.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
On 17 January 2012 07:52, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:


> I am dismayed that such a radical undertaking wasn't mentioned on this
> list, nor announced by a site banner for logged in users, nor even
> canvassed out to user talk pages. This is especially in light of the short
> time frame mentioned in the public closing statement - not everyone checks
> their watchlist daily (I *assume* a notice was listed there at least!)

I'm quite surprised it wasn't discussed on the list - I suspect this
may be the perennial problem where something gets discussed on
foundation-l rather than wikien-l, and people forget to crosspost
between them. (I include myself in this - I really should have
noticed. Apologies...)

A quick recap of where it's been discussed:

After the initial flurry of activity on Jimbo's talkpage (which I
agree is a fairly odd place to try and hash out policy) in
mid-December gave broad support for some kind of action, there was an
RFC at the end of December on a rough time for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Coordinated_SOPA_reaction_in_early_2012_RfC

This led to a second more detailed RFC on what exactly to do, which
closed last night - this is the "72 hour" discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative

The second RFC was advertised with a central notice active over the
past three days for all readers:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&method=listNoticeDetail&notice=enWP+SOPA+RfC

as well as the centralised discussion list, AN, etc.

The one omission there other than the mailing list seems to have been
the Village Pumps; the first RFC was hosted on VP/Proposals, but
spamming a notice for the second RFC to the others might have been
worthwhile. Something to add to the list for next time we have some
mass short-notice discussion like this - though, hopefully, that won't
be for another ten years!

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Thomas Dalton
On 17 January 2012 11:29, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The one omission there other than the mailing list seems to have been
> the Village Pumps; the first RFC was hosted on VP/Proposals, but
> spamming a notice for the second RFC to the others might have been
> worthwhile. Something to add to the list for next time we have some
> mass short-notice discussion like this - though, hopefully, that won't
> be for another ten years!

Really, if it's on Central Notice, it doesn't need to be anywhere
else. It was a little difficult to miss.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

K. Peachey-2
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Really, if it's on Central Notice, it doesn't need to be anywhere
> else. It was a little difficult to miss.
Since a large majority of users block CN messages because of the large
amount of what some would call spam in them, Yes it does need to be
announced elsewhere.

For example, en.wikipedia folks can watchlist {{CENT}} and they will
get alerted to "most" major community level notices.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Katie Chan
On 17/01/2012 12:19, K. Peachey wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Thomas Dalton<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Really, if it's on Central Notice, it doesn't need to be anywhere
>> else. It was a little difficult to miss.
> Since a large majority of users block CN messages because of the large
> amount of what some would call spam in them, Yes it does need to be
> announced elsewhere.

One can't really complain about not being inform about things if they
choose to block out one of the major channel of public notice....

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
     - Heinrich Heine

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

K. Peachey-2
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Katie Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One can't really complain about not being inform about things if they
> choose to block out one of the major channel of public notice....
I'm not going to start the whole debate on If CN is a notice service,
what it should be used for, etc discussion.

But when 99% of the messages are visually distracting and serve no
relevance to a large amount of the audience, You can expect these
things to be blocked which is why most people have.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Thomas Dalton
On 17 January 2012 13:00, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Katie Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One can't really complain about not being inform about things if they
>> choose to block out one of the major channel of public notice....
> I'm not going to start the whole debate on If CN is a notice service,
> what it should be used for, etc discussion.
>
> But when 99% of the messages are visually distracting and serve no
> relevance to a large amount of the audience, You can expect these
> things to be blocked which is why most people have.

I find it highly unlikely that "most" people have blocked them. You
don't strengthen your argument by using hyperbole.

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Elias Friedman
In reply to this post by Andrew Gray-3
On Jan 17, 2012 6:31 AM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The second RFC was advertised with a central notice active over the
> past three days for all readers:
>
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralNotice&method=listNoticeDetail&notice=enWP+SOPA+RfC
>

Well that explains why I didn't see it. It was posted during Shabbos when I
don't use any electronics. Then on Sunday I worked from 7am - 10pm and
evidently never had to consult the encyclopedia for anything. I finally
noticed the new notice on Monday night.

The only mass media I consume regularly is local radio (WCBS & WQXR
mostly). I did, however, check my email frequenly during the period with
the exception of during Shabbos.

I don't subscribe to Foundation-L, I never figured I would be interested in
most of the discussions there.

I don't want to slog through the whole discussion, but did anyone at least
suggest "rolling" blackouts to minimize the damage? Something like the
site's "off" for the first half of each hour, then "on" for the latter
half? Wouldn't that make a sufficient statement? It's not like en.wiki's
facing an immediate existential threat like it.wiki did. This action really
seems like overkill to me- swatting flies with hand grenades...

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

K. Peachey-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I find it highly unlikely that "most" people have blocked them. You
> don't strengthen your argument by using hyperbole.
I based that comment it on the few hundred "Omg how do we get rid of
these notices" on the notice boards every time the fundraiser banners
go up and the requests during other periods when other banners get
shown, The fact that we even have a user gadget to kill them every
year does show there is a larger than normal consumer base that does
it, As well as the css/js I see people import into other projects to
accomplish this as well

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Elias Friedman
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
Well, the competition's already trying to take advantage!

Via Twitter: @credoreference: RT @rulibrary: Wikipedia will be down
tomorrow. Use Credo Reference instead, see how you like it!
http://t.co/p2HzWPlM

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

David Gerard-2
Citizendium will *clean up* tomorrow.

On 17 January 2012 17:02, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, the competition's already trying to take advantage!
>
> Via Twitter: @credoreference: RT @rulibrary: Wikipedia will be down
> tomorrow. Use Credo Reference instead, see how you like it!
> http://t.co/p2HzWPlM
>
> Sent from my Droid2
> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
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> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Gwern Branwen
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:09 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Citizendium will *clean up* tomorrow.

I rather doubt they will. Who has heard of them? And they'd better
hope they don't because any tiny fraction of En's traffic will knock
them offline, further poisoning what little reputation it has left.

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Tom Morris-5
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
On 17 January 2012 17:02, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, the competition's already trying to take advantage!
>
> Via Twitter: @credoreference: RT @rulibrary: Wikipedia will be down
> tomorrow. Use Credo Reference instead, see how you like it!
> http://t.co/p2HzWPlM
>

Heh. I remember a Credo Reference tweet a while back which told people
to try Credo because it's more reliable than Wikipedia, and pointed to
a Credo page about the Japanese earthquake (a few days after it had
happened). I went to the Credo page, and it made no mention of the
earthquake last year. Meanwhile, the Wikipedia article on the
earthquake (a) existed and (b) was later applauded by experts on the
topic for its accuracy and completeness. ;-)

--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

Tom Morris-5
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 17 January 2012 17:09, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Citizendium will *clean up* tomorrow.
>

No, Simple English Wikipedia will.

It's like Citizendium, but with three times as many articles and with
a much better homeopathy article. ;-)

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<http://tommorris.org/>

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Re: English Wikipedia blackout

priyank bagrecha
In reply to this post by K. Peachey-2
Just curious to know, when we say that english wikipedia will be having a
blackout, does that also include the english wikipedia api?

Thanks
Priyank




On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:00 AM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Katie Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > One can't really complain about not being inform about things if they
> > choose to block out one of the major channel of public notice....
> I'm not going to start the whole debate on If CN is a notice service,
> what it should be used for, etc discussion.
>
> But when 99% of the messages are visually distracting and serve no
> relevance to a large amount of the audience, You can expect these
> things to be blocked which is why most people have.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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