English language dominationism is striking again

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

John Doe-27
Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I
can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that
gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up
and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good
method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated
and needs review, and what has already been translated.

John

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >> If we consider
> >> that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and
> those
> >> without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I
> would
> >> be
> >> careful to advocate the unilateral use of English.
> >
> >
> > As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said.
>
> Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by
> making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little
> use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't
> understand.
>
> m.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

John Doe-27
the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as
many languages as you can:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandbox&oldid=40748125

John

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I
> can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that
> gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up
> and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good
> method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated
> and needs review, and what has already been translated.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> >> If we consider
>> >> that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and
>> those
>> >> without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I
>> would
>> >> be
>> >> careful to advocate the unilateral use of English.
>> >
>> >
>> > As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said.
>>
>> Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by
>> making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little
>> use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't
>> understand.
>>
>> m.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

metasj
Very nice.

I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used
to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by
those tags.

SJ

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:51 PM, John Doe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as
> many languages as you can:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandbox&oldid=40748125
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I
>> can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that
>> gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up
>> and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good
>> method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated
>> and needs review, and what has already been translated.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]>wrote:
>>
>>> >> If we consider
>>> >> that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and
>>> those
>>> >> without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I
>>> would
>>> >> be
>>> >> careful to advocate the unilateral use of English.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said.
>>>
>>> Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by
>>> making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little
>>> use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> m.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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--
Samuel Klein          identi.ca:sj           w:user:sj

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Pronoein
In reply to this post by John Doe-27
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Oh, this function is very interesting. If it were coupled with a
function to get synonyms and metonyms (ie, equidae, mount) as a proposal
to enlarge or explore a concept, then a semantic map would be created to
navigate Commons in all languages.
Maybe context-related or frequently-associated keywords would be useful too.


On 23/06/2010 05:51, John Doe wrote:

> the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as
> many languages as you can:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandbox&oldid=40748125
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I
>> can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that
>> gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up
>> and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good
>> method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated
>> and needs review, and what has already been translated.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]>wrote:
>>
>>>>> If we consider
>>>>> that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and
>>> those
>>>>> without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I
>>> would
>>>>> be
>>>>> careful to advocate the unilateral use of English.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said.
>>>
>>> Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by
>>> making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little
>>> use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> m.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Nikola Smolenski-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote:

>>> I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility.
>> Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching
>> for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in
>> English, zero if searched in Estonian ("hobu"), and while it gives 160 000
>> results for a Hungarian search ("ló") on the first page only one of it is an
>> image that resembles a horse.
>
> Here's a thought: Enter "hobu" into translate.google.com, leave
> "source language" on automatic and target on "English", and it will
> happily translate it into "horse". Could we offer a "translation" link
> in search? As in, "translate my query into English and try again"? I'm
> sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else).

I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
Mark Williamson wrote:
> In addition, I have a feeling that article overstates the English
> abilities of the average non-native internet user. Yes, lots of people
> have a very (very!) basic command of English, but that is not the same
> as functional bilingualism. A user may happen to know the name for a
> horse, but what are the chances a casual user from Peru knows the name
> for an anteater, a giraffe or a jellyfish?
>
>
>  

Amusingly enough, a former student of Martin Luther, by
the name of Michael Agricola, faced this problem when
translating the bible into Finnish in the 17th century.

Yes, Virginia, the Finnish language really didn't exist as
a written word but late in the 17th century.

Michaels solution to the knotty problem of how to describe
animals the common folk had not really had any experience
of, was to rely on the most conspicuous visual, which often
ended up mildly humorous to later readers. An ostritch he
dubbed what would be literally "Stork-camel", ("kamelikurki"
Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael "a noble deer"
("jalopeura"), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact
that lions are hardly ruminants.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen






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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Keegan Peterzell
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <[hidden email]

> wrote:
>
> Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael "a noble deer"
> ("jalopeura"), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact
> that lions are hardly ruminants.
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


Not to mention the cats not cattle thing.  A pride versus a herd is a world
of difference in the realm of collective connotation.
--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Nikola Smolenski-2
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote:
>>>> I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility.
>>> Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching
>>> for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in
>>> English, zero if searched in Estonian ("hobu"), and while it gives 160 000
>>> results for a Hungarian search ("ló") on the first page only one of it is an
>>> image that resembles a horse.
>>
>> Here's a thought: Enter "hobu" into translate.google.com, leave
>> "source language" on automatic and target on "English", and it will
>> happily translate it into "horse". Could we offer a "translation" link
>> in search? As in, "translate my query into English and try again"? I'm
>> sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else).
>
> I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php

Nice! Now it needs language auto-detect, and Estonian for the example
(unless I didn't see it), and, of course, integration into Commons...

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell
Oh, I misread that.  Disregard.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael "a noble deer"
>> ("jalopeura"), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact
>> that lions are hardly ruminants.
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>
>
> Not to mention the cats not cattle thing.  A pride versus a herd is a world
> of difference in the realm of collective connotation.
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>



--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Gergő Tisza
In reply to this post by metasj
Samuel Klein <meta.sj@...> writes:

> I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used
> to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by
> those tags.

I think this stuff should be left for Google. A clever search engine should be
able to figure out that if you are looking for "Pferd" images, "horse" images
will also be of interest; and Google is getting clever quickly in this regard.
(For example, recently Google web search has been offering to translate the
search phrase to English, and translate the results back to you.)

OTOH, it would be a nice feature to show translated page and category names when
someone looks at the page with the interface language set to non-English.


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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Magnus Manske-2
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Tisza Gergo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Samuel Klein <meta.sj@...> writes:
>
>> I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used
>> to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by
>> those tags.
>
> I think this stuff should be left for Google. A clever search engine should be
> able to figure out that if you are looking for "Pferd" images, "horse" images
> will also be of interest; and Google is getting clever quickly in this regard.
> (For example, recently Google web search has been offering to translate the
> search phrase to English, and translate the results back to you.)
>
> OTOH, it would be a nice feature to show translated page and category names when
> someone looks at the page with the interface language set to non-English.

OK, technical solution (hackish as usual, but with potential IMHO):

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=Pferd+Schach&withJS=MediaWiki:SearchTranslation.js

Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query
run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language
editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this
case, "Pferd" and "Schach"), count how many exist, pick the language
with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to
Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source
language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the
appropriate search page.

In essence, clicking on the link gets you to the toolserver and back
to the search, this time in English, without you noticing.

I am checking all the languages the Nikola's tool offers (so no
Estonian), except English (no point, really).

Experimenting, I noticed that even if your original query got you some
results (e.g. "Schaufel"=47), the translation in English will give you
more ("Shovel"=484).

I tried to restrict the language search for the languages accepted by
the browser (so, using 1 or 2 queries instead of 32), but there
appears to be no way in JavaScript to get that information. MediaWiki
could pass it on, though...

Feel free to improve!

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Gergő Tisza
Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...> writes:

> Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query
> run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language
> editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this
> case, "Pferd" and "Schach"), count how many exist, pick the language
> with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to
> Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source
> language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the
> appropriate search page.

Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one
exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel:

http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach
http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect

It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure
it would give better results for the major ones.


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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Magnus Manske-2
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...> writes:
>
>> Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query
>> run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language
>> editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this
>> case, "Pferd" and "Schach"), count how many exist, pick the language
>> with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to
>> Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source
>> language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the
>> appropriate search page.
>
> Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one
> exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel:
>
> http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach
> http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect
>
> It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure
> it would give better results for the major ones.

Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread.
However, people didn't seem to want it.

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

John Doe-27
In reply to this post by Gergő Tisza
Like I said before, If I can get some template support on commons, Ive got a
translation tool that uses one of googles APIs for translating. I just need
some assistance with figuring out how to best integrate it into commons. But
I do have a on demand mass translation tool.

John

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Tisza Gergo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...> writes:
>
> > Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query
> > run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language
> > editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this
> > case, "Pferd" and "Schach"), count how many exist, pick the language
> > with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to
> > Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source
> > language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the
> > appropriate search page.
>
> Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if
> one
> exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel:
>
> http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach<http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7CPferd%20Schach>
> http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect
>
> It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty
> sure
> it would give better results for the major ones.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
On 23 June 2010 15:34, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...> writes:

>>> Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query
>>> run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language

>> Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one
>> exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel:

> Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread.
> However, people didn't seem to want it.


Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those
who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a)
third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha.


- d.

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Nikola Smolenski-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
Дана Wednesday 23 June 2010 10:13:39 Magnus Manske написа:

> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote:
> >> Here's a thought: Enter "hobu" into translate.google.com, leave
> >> "source language" on automatic and target on "English", and it will
> >> happily translate it into "horse". Could we offer a "translation" link
> >> in search? As in, "translate my query into English and try again"? I'm
> >> sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else).
> >
> > I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php
>
> Nice! Now it needs language auto-detect, and Estonian for the example
> (unless I didn't see it), and, of course, integration into Commons...

All done, and I leave the integration to someone who knows how to navigate the
community's labyrinths.

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Nikola Smolenski-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
Дана Wednesday 23 June 2010 16:34:26 Magnus Manske написа:

> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if
> > one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel:
> >
> > http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach
> > http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect
> >
> > It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm
> > pretty sure it would give better results for the major ones.
>
> Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread.
> However, people didn't seem to want it.

This tool of mine does use Google Translate, so probably it could be done in
Javascript fully, if someone knows how.

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2

On 23 Jun 2010, at 16:23, David Gerard wrote:

> Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those
> who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a)
> third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha.

I always think than not using reCaptcha is a shame, as it's a nice way to get people to proofread text in a reasonably efficient way. It would be really nice if someone could create something similar that proofreads OCR'd text from Wikisource... <hint, hint>.

Mike
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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Nikola Smolenski-2
> On 23 Jun 2010, at 16:23, David Gerard wrote:
> > Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those
> > who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a)
> > third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha.

On the other hand, do we have to really _rely_ on reCaptcha? If their servers
aren't working, use the ordinary captcha. Proofread books and still not rely
on any external servers.

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Re: English language dominationism is striking again

Mariano Cecowski
In reply to this post by Mike Peel


--- El mié 23-jun-10, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> escribió:

> I always think than not using reCaptcha is a shame, as it's
> a nice way to get people to proofread text in a reasonably
> efficient way. It would be really nice if someone could
> create something similar that proofreads OCR'd text from
> Wikisource... <hint, hint>.

And how do you decide that what was entered is wrong or right?

Better take a look at Project Gutemberg's Distributed Proofreaders[1].

Cheers,
MarianoC.-

[1] http://pgdp.net




     

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