FCKEditor on MediaWiki 1.6.7

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FCKEditor on MediaWiki 1.6.7

Mei Wu
Hello all!

I am running MediaWiki 1.6.7 in an corporate environment. Because most
of the users do not have a technical background I installed the FCK
WYSIWYG Editor Version 2.2.

The installation went fine but when I edit a Wikipage with the
FCKEditor and save it, the text won't show. When I hit "edit" again, I
can edit the text but it just won't show after I save the page.

When I set the FCKEditor as the default editor, the text of every
Wikipage won't even show. Does anyone knows what I am doing wrong? Are
the versions of the Wiki and the FCKEditor compatible?

Thanks for your help. I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,
Mei
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Installing Renameuser extension

Metaspheres
Hello,

I am running MediaWiki 1.7.1 and recently tried to install RenameUser (acquired from the Wikimedia Meta site) which caused MediaWiki to stop running, and thus had to remove it from my LocalSettings. So I am wondering if I did something wrong, or if this version of Renameuser that is publicly available is not compatible with MediaWiki 1.7.1, or if I need another extension installed as well?

To install, seeing as there were no instructions, I simply assumed that all I would have to do is add the extension to LocalSettings and place it in the extensions folder like any other.

Thank you,

Sven

 
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Re: Installing Renameuser extension

Jimmy Collins-3
Hi Sven,

I suppose you've only downloaded one file (SpecialRenameuser.php). Meanwhile you need three files at all. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Renameuser again. I have changed the link (to http://svn.wikimedia.org/svnroot/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/Renameuser/), now you see the other required files as well.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Jimmy



> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 30.07.06 05:48:27
> An: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: [Mediawiki-l] Installing Renameuser extension


> Hello,
>
> I am running MediaWiki 1.7.1 and recently tried to install RenameUser (acquired from the Wikimedia Meta site) which caused MediaWiki to stop running, and thus had to remove it from my LocalSettings. So I am wondering if I did something wrong, or if this version of Renameuser that is publicly available is not compatible with MediaWiki 1.7.1, or if I need another extension installed as well?
>
> To install, seeing as there were no instructions, I simply assumed that all I would have to do is add the extension to LocalSettings and place it in the extensions folder like any other.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Sven
>
>  
> ---------------------------------
> See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com.  Check it out.
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: FCKEditor on MediaWiki 1.6.7

MarkusA
In reply to this post by Mei Wu
> The installation went fine but when I edit a Wikipage with the
> FCKEditor and save it, the text won't show. When I hit "edit" again, I
> can edit the text but it just won't show after I save the page.
>
> When I set the FCKEditor as the default editor, the text of every
> Wikipage won't even show. Does anyone knows what I am doing wrong?

It would appear that the function wfFCKeditorBypassParserCut works pretty well
but that the function wfFCKeditorBypassParserPaste is not called at all.

Do you have any furhter extensions installed which uses the same hooks as
the FCKeditor extension? In this case check if all hook call back functions
return "true". You should also use the latest version of
          http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FCKeditor/extension

For a quick check disable all extensions execpt FCKeditor and run a edit/save
cycle on a wiki page.

Kind regards,         Markus
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Re: FCKEditor on MediaWiki 1.6.7

Mei Wu
Hi Markus,

thanks for your help. I disabled all extensions and the FCKeditor
worked. I reactivated the extensions step by step and found out that
there is a conflict with the semantic mediawiki extension. How can I
make sure that both are working properly? Is there a way that the
FCKeditor and the semantic mediawiki can use different hooks?

Thanks for your help again.

Best,
Mei

On 7/30/06, Familie Arndt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > The installation went fine but when I edit a Wikipage with the
> > FCKEditor and save it, the text won't show. When I hit "edit" again, I
> > can edit the text but it just won't show after I save the page.
> >
> > When I set the FCKEditor as the default editor, the text of every
> > Wikipage won't even show. Does anyone knows what I am doing wrong?
>
> It would appear that the function wfFCKeditorBypassParserCut works pretty well
> but that the function wfFCKeditorBypassParserPaste is not called at all.
>
> Do you have any furhter extensions installed which uses the same hooks as
> the FCKeditor extension? In this case check if all hook call back functions
> return "true". You should also use the latest version of
>           http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FCKeditor/extension
>
> For a quick check disable all extensions execpt FCKeditor and run a edit/save
> cycle on a wiki page.
>
> Kind regards,         Markus
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
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Re: FCKEditor on MediaWiki 1.6.7

MarkusA
In reply to this post by Mei Wu
> I disabled all extensions and the FCKeditor
> worked. I reactivated the extensions step by step and found out that
> there is a conflict with the semantic mediawiki extension. How can I
> make sure that both are working properly? Is there a way that the
> FCKeditor and the semantic mediawiki can use different hooks?

I had a quick look on the sourcecode of the semantic mediawiki (current
version). The semantic mediawiki and the FCKeditor extension use one
parser hook in common which in itself is no problem.

However, there are more hook calls involved and here we are all in all
in trouble as FCKeditor extension bypasses the parser and the semantic
mediawiki uses parser hooks for modifying the output text.

Your initial problem was that you did not see any output text when using
both extensions. Here I am still lost. Although the extensions cannot
work correctly you should see at least something. Provided that this
issue could be solved, it might be possible to adapt the FCKeditor
extension in such a way that both extension can coexists - at least
until the next software update. Hence, sooner or later you will be
again in trouble.

Sorry, there is no easy solution to your problem            Markus
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Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
Looks like we'll finally be ditching MediaWiki in our office next  
year. Apple has come to the party with a WYSIWYG wiki of its own:
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html

We've been using MediaWiki for our office intranet over the years but  
it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because  
of the requirement that users learn wiki markup.

It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been a high  
priority for MediaWiki, considering the fact that MediaWiki and  
Wikipedia are founded on the idea of participation. The biggest  
obstacle, it has often seemed to me, is an installed base of  
Wikipedians who see wiki markup as a way of protecting their  
territory and minimising participation by others. MediaWiki has  
therefore been a bit of a love hate relationship in our office, and  
instead of being sad to see MediaWiki go we will be very happy indeed.

Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,  
particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor. I wish your efforts  
had borne fruit earlier and it's a pity you haven't had more support,  
but I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

Cheers,
Christiaan
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Jean-Lou Dupont-5
Christiaan,

I share your point of view, unfortunately: I have conducted a pilot test of
Mediawiki before pushing it for our Intranet and I must say wiki markup is a
major roadblock. Maybe Meta does not care for WSYIWYG that much but I
believe they are missing a golden opportunity: supplying an Intranet
building to enterprises.  Someone is bound to capitalize on this
opportunity.

Jld.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Christiaan Briggs
Sent: August 8, 2006 08:04
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
Subject: [Mediawiki-l] Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Looks like we'll finally be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year.
Apple has come to the party with a WYSIWYG wiki of its own:
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html

We've been using MediaWiki for our office intranet over the years but it's
never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because of the
requirement that users learn wiki markup.

It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been a high priority
for MediaWiki, considering the fact that MediaWiki and Wikipedia are founded
on the idea of participation. The biggest obstacle, it has often seemed to
me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki markup as a way of
protecting their territory and minimising participation by others. MediaWiki
has therefore been a bit of a love hate relationship in our office, and
instead of being sad to see MediaWiki go we will be very happy indeed.

Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki, particularly
in trying to integrate FCKEditor. I wish your efforts had borne fruit
earlier and it's a pity you haven't had more support, but I'm sure you'll
get there eventually.

Cheers,
Christiaan
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Brion Vibber
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
On 8/8/06, Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looks like we'll finally be ditching MediaWiki in our office next
> year. Apple has come to the party with a WYSIWYG wiki of its own:


Congratulations!

MediaWiki is not targeted at internal office use. While some people do use
it successfully in this market, we offer no support, have no marketing, make
no income from it, and don't make any effort whatsoever to be more than
tolerable for it.

I'm glad you've found other software which is more appropriate for your
requirements.

We really are not trying to sell MediaWiki to you or to anyone. It *really
is* good for us if you need something different and you *use* something
different because of that. That's better both for you and for us.



> The biggest
> obstacle, it has often seemed to me, is an installed base of
> Wikipedians who see wiki markup as a way of protecting their
> territory and minimising participation by others.



That's absolutely false. Rather, the reason that all attempts have failed so
far is that we have an installed base of millions of *pages* of *content*
over *five years* with which compatibility *must* be *retained* for
*Wikimedia*. Hacky HTML editors damage the text and destroy pages during
editing, which is completely contrary to our requirement to preserve page
text across tens of thousands of edits.

We simply have no interest in your intranet. It's not on our radar. We have
no deal to provide you with intranet software. It's not what we do.

> Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki,
> particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor. I wish your efforts
> had borne fruit earlier and it's a pity you haven't had more support,
> but I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

I advise you not to waste time waiting on these integration efforts. The
back-and-forth conversion they require is likely to never work properly.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
On 8 Aug 2006, at 2:35 PM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> MediaWiki is not targeted at internal office use. While some people  
> do use it successfully in this market, we offer no support, have no  
> marketing, make no income from it, and don't make any effort  
> whatsoever to be more than tolerable for it.

Actually I'm an active editor on Wikipedia and other online wikis  
using MediaWiki. My comments about WYSIWYG apply equally to such  
sites. That is to say I think it's a great obstacle to participation.  
It just happens that I'm in control of our office intranet, so to  
increase participation I shall be ditching MediaWiki and moving to a  
more modern wiki.

> We really are not trying to sell MediaWiki to you or to anyone. It  
> *really is* good for us if you need something different and you  
> *use* something different because of that. That's better both for  
> you and for us.

Sorry I disagree. I don't think MediaWiki is "really is good for us".  
I despise working with wiki markup and I know many very capable  
people who could be great contributors to Wikipedia but they're not  
because of wiki markup.

>> The biggest obstacle, it has often seemed to me, is an installed  
>> base of Wikipedians who see wiki markup as a way of protecting  
>> their territory and minimising participation by others.
>
> That's absolutely false. Rather, the reason that all attempts have  
> failed so far is that we have an installed base of millions of  
> *pages* of *content* over *five years* with which compatibility  
> *must* be *retained* for *Wikimedia*. Hacky HTML editors damage the  
> text and destroy pages during editing, which is completely contrary  
> to our requirement to preserve page text across tens of thousands  
> of edits.

I know what the arguments are, I've heard them all and participated  
in many of the discussions. From my experience, however, the *real*  
obstacle is an installed base of technocrats who sees WYSIWYG as a  
threat to their positions, therefore all efforts to move in that  
direction are slow. Mostly they don't say such things outright,  
although some do. For instance I've had people argue that wiki markup  
is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to  
overcome before being allowed to contribute.

> I advise you not to waste time waiting on these integration  
> efforts. The back-and-forth conversion they require is likely to  
> never work properly.

Over the years I've learnt to dismiss comments that include the  
qualifier "never". They're invariably way off the mark.

There's also nothing stopping Wikipedia, etc. from moving to a  
different platform altogether of course.

Cheers,
Christiaan
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

MHart
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber
Intuit uses MediaWiki in the majority of its internal wikis - over 100. We
have one MediaWiki running with fck. Some groups are migrating to Jotspot
since it provides wysiwyg.

The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors. Even at a "techie"
company like Intuit, half the potential contributors see wikitext as a
hurdle.

This number likely reflects the rest of the world - it wouldn't surprise me
if many potential Wikipedia contributors are also stymied by wikitext. Do
you have the number of Edit clicks that didn't then result in a Save? That
might be a decent indicator of first-time contribution attempts that failed
for some reason - possibly intimidated by wikitext.

The one wiki we have with fck was an add-on to an existing wiki and
encountered the compatibility issues Brion mentioned. However, just as the
community cleans up wikitext pages, the community cleaned up the conversion
issues - just as they would in Wikipedia.

You get the closest conversion that you can and then people will clean up
what remains.

- MHart

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Ron Hall

> The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors. Even at a
> "techie"
> company like Intuit, half the potential contributors see wikitext as a
> hurdle.
>
    This is a "wall" we are currently facing with our nascent Wiki.
    There is some urging for FCK editor, but I some don't find
    wiki markup difficult or particularly onerous - but I suppose I'm
    in the minority - at least here. What are others experiences - is it
worth
    the price of admission to add the functionality or do I just tell'em
that's
    the way it is?


    r
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Gary Kirk
In reply to this post by MHart
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to use...sure, tables
might be a little difficult, and having images how you want them too, but
for simple editing it really isn't, especially with the edit bar.

-- gary kirk


On 8/8/06, MHart <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Intuit uses MediaWiki in the majority of its internal wikis - over 100. We
> have one MediaWiki running with fck. Some groups are migrating to Jotspot
> since it provides wysiwyg.
>
> The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors. Even at a
> "techie"
> company like Intuit, half the potential contributors see wikitext as a
> hurdle.
>
> This number likely reflects the rest of the world - it wouldn't surprise
> me
> if many potential Wikipedia contributors are also stymied by wikitext. Do
> you have the number of Edit clicks that didn't then result in a Save? That
> might be a decent indicator of first-time contribution attempts that
> failed
> for some reason - possibly intimidated by wikitext.
>
> The one wiki we have with fck was an add-on to an existing wiki and
> encountered the compatibility issues Brion mentioned. However, just as the
> community cleans up wikitext pages, the community cleaned up the
> conversion
> issues - just as they would in Wikipedia.
>
> You get the closest conversion that you can and then people will clean up
> what remains.
>
> - MHart
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>



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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Ron Hall
Gary Kirk wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to use...sure,
> tables
> might be a little difficult, and having images how you want them too, but
> for simple editing it really isn't, especially with the edit bar.
>
    This was essentially my argument also, but apparently it's too hard?
    And no it was not any more quantifiable than that. Even tables are
    not that hard, sorry they're not - really. Absolute positioning of
images,
    well this is a problem, but then again we're not designing for absolute
    pixel placement? Are We?

    just my thoughts on the subject.

    r

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

jdd
In reply to this post by MHart
MHart a écrit :

> The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors.

this is probably just a lack of informations.

I see two problems

* page layout. urge the new user not to take any value to
the layout. Use a "simple editor" way of life: titles are
some word on one line, paragraph breaks are two carriage
return, period. others will do the final layout, _this is
collaborative effort_

* you need a table: open mozilla composer (or NVu), build
your table there, open the source windos and copy.paste the
content between <table> and </table> in the wiki page.

with this 90% of the wiki pages will go. images one by line,
thats all.

_wiki is a collaborative effort_, let the experienced users
do what you can't do and insert _your own invaluable
experience_ as text...

jdd


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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Frederich, Eric P21322
In reply to this post by Gary Kirk
I can see both sides of the wiki markup issue.

I think it is very easy for anybody to change an existing page by adding
something to a list, changing some wording around or other minor edits.

To start a new page from scratch it can be intimidating.

The one thing I like about wiki markup is that it is readable unlike
html.  I am not sure how other wiki software does with WYSIWYG but I
cannot stand any WYSIWYG html editor or WYSIWYG content management
system.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Kirk
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:46 AM
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to use...sure,
tables
might be a little difficult, and having images how you want them too,
but
for simple editing it really isn't, especially with the edit bar.

-- gary kirk


On 8/8/06, MHart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Intuit uses MediaWiki in the majority of its internal wikis - over
100. We
> have one MediaWiki running with fck. Some groups are migrating to
Jotspot
> since it provides wysiwyg.
>
> The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors. Even at a
> "techie"
> company like Intuit, half the potential contributors see wikitext as a
> hurdle.
>
> This number likely reflects the rest of the world - it wouldn't
surprise
> me
> if many potential Wikipedia contributors are also stymied by wikitext.
Do
> you have the number of Edit clicks that didn't then result in a Save?
That
> might be a decent indicator of first-time contribution attempts that
> failed
> for some reason - possibly intimidated by wikitext.
>
> The one wiki we have with fck was an add-on to an existing wiki and
> encountered the compatibility issues Brion mentioned. However, just as
the
> community cleans up wikitext pages, the community cleaned up the
> conversion
> issues - just as they would in Wikipedia.
>
> You get the closest conversion that you can and then people will clean
up
> what remains.
>
> - MHart
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>



--
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Gary Kirk
What I meant was this kind of thing:
[[Image:Name.png|left|250px|Description]] in the right order etc - I
can never remember so I have it on a tools page in my userspace  on
en:wp.

-- gary kirk

On 8/8/06, Frederich, Eric P2173 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I can see both sides of the wiki markup issue.
>
> I think it is very easy for anybody to change an existing page by adding
> something to a list, changing some wording around or other minor edits.
>
> To start a new page from scratch it can be intimidating.
>
> The one thing I like about wiki markup is that it is readable unlike
> html.  I am not sure how other wiki software does with WYSIWYG but I
> cannot stand any WYSIWYG html editor or WYSIWYG content management
> system.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Kirk
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:46 AM
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki
>
> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to use...sure,
> tables
> might be a little difficult, and having images how you want them too,
> but
> for simple editing it really isn't, especially with the edit bar.
>
> -- gary kirk
>
>
> On 8/8/06, MHart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Intuit uses MediaWiki in the majority of its internal wikis - over
> 100. We
> > have one MediaWiki running with fck. Some groups are migrating to
> Jotspot
> > since it provides wysiwyg.
> >
> > The lack of wysiwyg is indeed a hurdle for contributors. Even at a
> > "techie"
> > company like Intuit, half the potential contributors see wikitext as a
> > hurdle.
> >
> > This number likely reflects the rest of the world - it wouldn't
> surprise
> > me
> > if many potential Wikipedia contributors are also stymied by wikitext.
> Do
> > you have the number of Edit clicks that didn't then result in a Save?
> That
> > might be a decent indicator of first-time contribution attempts that
> > failed
> > for some reason - possibly intimidated by wikitext.
> >
> > The one wiki we have with fck was an add-on to an existing wiki and
> > encountered the compatibility issues Brion mentioned. However, just as
> the
> > community cleans up wikitext pages, the community cleaned up the
> > conversion
> > issues - just as they would in Wikipedia.
> >
> > You get the closest conversion that you can and then people will clean
> up
> > what remains.
> >
> > - MHart
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gary Kirk
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Gary Kirk
On 8 Aug 2006, at 4:46 PM, Gary Kirk wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to  
> use...sure, tables might be a little difficult, and having images  
> how you want them too, but for simple editing it really isn't,  
> especially with the edit bar.

I'm not surprised that you don't understand Gary. Part of my job is  
system admin and support. The system admin part means that I  
understand a reasonable amount about how computers work. The support  
part means that I understand a reasonable amount about how people  
work when they're confronted with computer systems.

One thing I've noticed is that people who work a lot with computers  
can become impatient and unsympathetic towards people who don't. They  
can also tend to forget what it took to learn what they know. I've  
also noticed that they can develop an attitude of "well this is just  
the way computers work, I learnt to use it so so can you." My  
attitude is that computers should be tailored to work with human  
beings, not the other way around.

People who have lives that don't revolve around the internet or  
computers generally don't have the time or inclination to learn wiki  
markup, and they certainly don't have the time to relearn it every  
time they want to use it, which is what happens. Wiki markup is not  
like riding a bike. It's easily forgotten. To say it's "hard" is a  
misnomer. The main problem is that it's time consuming.

In my office I am presented with the argument from people that they  
have enough things to learn and keep up with with regard to our  
computers systems without having to learn another language. And, the  
answer is (and should be) they don't have to. And they won't have to.  
When Apple releases their new Server OS, we'll install it and they  
can forget all about wiki markup and start participating in the  
production of content ... which is the whole point.

Christiaan
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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Jean-Lou Dupont-5
In reply to this post by Ron Hall
You can believe what you want, but in a corporate environment there is (and
always will be) inertia. Not everybody wants to learn new things, many
unless they are pressured to.
Jld.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron Hall
Sent: August 8, 2006 11:56
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki

Gary Kirk wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how it is hard to use...sure,
> tables might be a little difficult, and having images how you want
> them too, but for simple editing it really isn't, especially with the
> edit bar.
>
    This was essentially my argument also, but apparently it's too hard?
    And no it was not any more quantifiable than that. Even tables are
    not that hard, sorry they're not - really. Absolute positioning of
images,
    well this is a problem, but then again we're not designing for absolute
    pixel placement? Are We?

    just my thoughts on the subject.

    r

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Re: Apple's Wiki Server brings WYSIWYG to wiki (veering to the very off-topic)

Ron Hall
Jean-Lou Dupont wrote:
>
> You can believe what you want, but in a corporate environment there is
> (and
> always will be) inertia. Not everybody wants to learn new things, many
> unless they are pressured to.
>
    I hardly believe that a University setting is corporate, but the
world is changing
    so mayhap that is a viable comparison. On the other hand it is a
university environment
    in which everything changes, so learning new things is par for the
course. You are correct
    inertia lives in many forms outside of the usual physical sense and
it is perfectly Newtonian.
    More's the pity, but c'est la guerre.

    r

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