FDC Elections Banner Translations

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FDC Elections Banner Translations

James Alexander-4
Hey all,

If you have time I'd really appreciate some quick translations on the banners that will run for the FDC Election tomorrow (2, the committee is testing different language to see which works better). You can find them at the 2 links below. Unfortunately the translation system is a little buggy at the moment and the normal way to publish the translations (using the state dropdown) doesn't work. I spent a good portion of the night trying to find an alternative and for now I have one and will be keeping an eye on the languages coming in and publishing them through the API. I'm going to try and roll it out a bit slowly (starting at 00:00 UTC when the election starts) but eventually we'll need to turn it on for everyone given the short election (1 week) and so the more we can get in advance the better.

Banner translation links:

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Minata Hatsune
I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google Translate or other machine translation tools.

The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv), and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese. I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him before.

2015-05-02 20:05 GMT+07:00 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
Hey all,

If you have time I'd really appreciate some quick translations on the banners that will run for the FDC Election tomorrow (2, the committee is testing different language to see which works better). You can find them at the 2 links below. Unfortunately the translation system is a little buggy at the moment and the normal way to publish the translations (using the state dropdown) doesn't work. I spent a good portion of the night trying to find an alternative and for now I have one and will be keeping an eye on the languages coming in and publishing them through the API. I'm going to try and roll it out a bit slowly (starting at 00:00 UTC when the election starts) but eventually we'll need to turn it on for everyone given the short election (1 week) and so the more we can get in advance the better.

Banner translation links:

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

James Alexander-4
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google Translate or other machine translation tools.

The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv), and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese. I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him before.

Hi Minata,

The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections) because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them. 

To be honest I've found community members make the best translations (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations in.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur 

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

James Alexander-4
Just to clarify: The reason they wanted it as translated as possible is to make it easier for more, non English speaking, communities to participate in the election in their native language and understand what's happening.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google Translate or other machine translation tools.

The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv), and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese. I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him before.

Hi Minata,

The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections) because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them. 

To be honest I've found community members make the best translations (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations in.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur 


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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
I see, I am impressed by the WMF's efforts for translaton work of this election. However, I think there should be a public announcement for translators who signed in Special:TranslatorSignUp, or maybe it has been mentioned in a public site but I have missed. :)

Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy (<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Trần_Nguyễn_Minh_Huy>)
Supporter, Vietnames Wikimedia Projects

2015-05-02 21:37 GMT+07:00 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
Just to clarify: The reason they wanted it as translated as possible is to make it easier for more, non English speaking, communities to participate in the election in their native language and understand what's happening.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google Translate or other machine translation tools.

The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv), and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese. I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him before.

Hi Minata,

The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections) because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them. 

To be honest I've found community members make the best translations (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations in.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur 


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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Bojan Jankuloski-2
Hello,
Macedonian (mk) is done. Thanks for the notification!

Bojan

On 2 May 2015 at 16:54, Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see, I am impressed by the WMF's efforts for translaton work of this election. However, I think there should be a public announcement for translators who signed in Special:TranslatorSignUp, or maybe it has been mentioned in a public site but I have missed. :)

Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy (<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Trần_Nguyễn_Minh_Huy>)
Supporter, Vietnames Wikimedia Projects

2015-05-02 21:37 GMT+07:00 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
Just to clarify: The reason they wanted it as translated as possible is to make it easier for more, non English speaking, communities to participate in the election in their native language and understand what's happening.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google Translate or other machine translation tools.

The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv), and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese. I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him before.

Hi Minata,

The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections) because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them. 

To be honest I've found community members make the best translations (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations in.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur 


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Споделено знаење I Shared Knowlege
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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I see, I am impressed by the WMF's efforts for translaton work of this
> election. However, I think there should be a public announcement for
> translators who signed in Special:TranslatorSignUp, or maybe it has been
> mentioned in a public site but I have missed. :)

Good point, but it's currently not possible technically to send such a
translation notifications for banner translations (only for page
translations): https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T58187

>
> Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
> (<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Trần_Nguyễn_Minh_Huy>)
> Supporter, Vietnames Wikimedia Projects
>
> 2015-05-02 21:37 GMT+07:00 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Just to clarify: The reason they wanted it as translated as possible is to
>> make it easier for more, non English speaking, communities to participate in
>> the election in their native language and understand what's happening.
>>
>> James Alexander
>> Community Advocacy
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see
>>>> the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've
>>>> edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google
>>>> Translate or other machine translation tools.
>>>>
>>>> The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am
>>>> curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page
>>>> did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese
>>>> translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv),
>>>> and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese.
>>>> I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him
>>>> before.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Minata,
>>>
>>> The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated
>>> as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections)
>>> because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for
>>> some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the
>>> world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a
>>> couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them.
>>>
>>> To be honest I've found community members make the best translations
>>> (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the
>>> large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we
>>> wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community
>>> members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much
>>> better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations
>>> in.
>>>
>>> James Alexander
>>> Community Advocacy
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Translators-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

James Alexander-4
Yeah sadly, however I'll send out another mass notice for the main translations page (I sent out one for elections early on a couple weeks ago too).

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I see, I am impressed by the WMF's efforts for translaton work of this
> election. However, I think there should be a public announcement for
> translators who signed in Special:TranslatorSignUp, or maybe it has been
> mentioned in a public site but I have missed. :)

Good point, but it's currently not possible technically to send such a
translation notifications for banner translations (only for page
translations): https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T58187

>
> Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy
> (<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Trần_Nguyễn_Minh_Huy>)
> Supporter, Vietnames Wikimedia Projects
>
> 2015-05-02 21:37 GMT+07:00 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Just to clarify: The reason they wanted it as translated as possible is to
>> make it easier for more, non English speaking, communities to participate in
>> the election in their native language and understand what's happening.
>>
>> James Alexander
>> Community Advocacy
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> <a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Minata Hatsune <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am a translator working on Vietnamese language. I was surprised to see
>>>> the translation in the two links above is done correctly (although I've
>>>> edited a bit for more understandable). It's not like someone has used Google
>>>> Translate or other machine translation tools.
>>>>
>>>> The translator is https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Varnent. I am
>>>> curious whether he also understands this language? Despite his personal page
>>>> did not show it. I also have the same questions with the Vietnamese
>>>> translation of Call for candidates. It was done by a staff of WMF (Azariv),
>>>> and I don't think he could understand a strange language such as Vietnamese.
>>>> I am active in many Wikimedia projects in Vietnamese, but had never seen him
>>>> before.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Minata,
>>>
>>> The board had as one of it's goals this year to have as much translated
>>> as possible for the board and FDC Elections (especially the board elections)
>>> because of that they asked me to pay for some professional translations for
>>> some targeted languages (mostly popular languages in different areas of the
>>> world, my boss Philippe picked them earlier for the strategy consultation a
>>> couple months ago) and Vietnamese was one of them.
>>>
>>> To be honest I've found community members make the best translations
>>> (especially given that some words are Wikimedia specific) but given the
>>> large amount of text and the short time schedule the elections have we
>>> wanted to ensure we'd get some translations in on time and allow community
>>> members to do the quick fixes that make it more understandable and that much
>>> better. Both Alex (Azariv) and Varnent were plugging those paid translations
>>> in.
>>>
>>> James Alexander
>>> Community Advocacy
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> <a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Translators-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>



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Senior Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Purodha Blissenbach
In reply to this post by James Alexander-4
You have a problem to solve with nonsential wordings of the "Click
HERE" type
before we can translate anything.
See:
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/noClickHere
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Localisation#Use_meaningful_link_anchors

Purodha

On 02.05.2015 15:05, James Alexander wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> If you have time Id really appreciate some quick translations on the
> banners that will run for the FDC Election tomorrow (2, the committee
> is testing different language to see which works better). You can
> find
> them at the 2 links below. Unfortunately the translation system is a
> little buggy at the moment and the normal way to publish the
> translations (using the state dropdown) doesnt work. I spent a good
> portion of the night trying to find an alternative and for now I have
> one and will be keeping an eye on the languages coming in and
> publishing them through the API. Im going to try and roll it out a
> bit
> slowly (starting at 00:00 UTC when the election starts) but
> eventually
> well need to turn it on for everyone given the short election (1
> week)
> and so the more we can get in advance the better.
>
> Banner translation links:
>
> *
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_startsB&filter=
> [1]
>
> * The Wikimedia Foundation Funds Dissemination Committee advises on
> how millions of WMF funds are spent.
>
> * Click here to participate in the election of its members.
>
> *
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_starts&filter=
> [2]
>
> * Votes are now being accepted for the Wikimedia Foundation Funds
> Dissemination Committee election.
> * Click here to read about the candidates and vote.
>
> James Alexander
> Community Advocacy
> Wikimedia Foundation
> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate|+|amp|+|group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_startsB|+|amp|+|filter=
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate|+|amp|+|group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_starts|+|amp|+|filter=


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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
I read the w3.org "no Click Here" tip, and I think I disagree with it.  The tip (which has a disclaimer about being non-binding and unofficial) gives four examples.  It contrasts common, familiar forms like "click here to download" with their ideal:

Tell me more about Amaya: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents.


As a person who has no idea what Amaya is, I actually find this "ideal" example to be the least helpful of all of them.  There are four links there, and I've no idea which one I should click on, what will happen if I do, or if any of them will have the information I want.  With "Click here to download", I've got a pretty clear idea what's going to happen:  something will start downloading as soon as I click it.  With this "ideal", I've no idea what's going to happen with anything that I click on.

Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse.  


-- 
Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Community Liaison
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Purodha Blissenbach <[hidden email]> wrote:
You have a problem to solve with nonsential wordings of the "Click HERE" type
before we can translate anything.
See:
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/noClickHere
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Localisation#Use_meaningful_link_anchors

Purodha

On 02.05.2015 15:05, James Alexander wrote:
Hey all,

If you have time Id really appreciate some quick translations on the
banners that will run for the FDC Election tomorrow (2, the committee
is testing different language to see which works better). You can find
them at the 2 links below. Unfortunately the translation system is a
little buggy at the moment and the normal way to publish the
translations (using the state dropdown) doesnt work. I spent a good
portion of the night trying to find an alternative and for now I have
one and will be keeping an eye on the languages coming in and
publishing them through the API. Im going to try and roll it out a bit
slowly (starting at 00:00 UTC when the election starts) but eventually
well need to turn it on for everyone given the short election (1 week)
and so the more we can get in advance the better.

Banner translation links:

        *

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_startsB&filter=
[1]

        * The Wikimedia Foundation Funds Dissemination Committee advises on
how millions of WMF funds are spent.

        * Click here to participate in the election of its members.

        *

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_starts&filter=
[2]

        * Votes are now being accepted for the Wikimedia Foundation Funds
Dissemination Committee election.
        * Click here to read about the candidates and vote.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%28415%29%20839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


Links:
------
[1]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate|+|amp|+|group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_startsB|+|amp|+|filter=
[2]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate|+|amp|+|group=Centralnotice-tgroup-Election2015_FDC_voting_starts|+|amp|+|filter=


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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Philippe Verdy


2015-05-03 22:50 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
I read the w3.org "no Click Here" tip, and I think I disagree with it.  The tip (which has a disclaimer about being non-binding and unofficial) gives four examples.  It contrasts common, familiar forms like "click here to download" with their ideal:

Tell me more about Amaya: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents.


As a person who has no idea what Amaya is, I actually find this "ideal" example to be the least helpful of all of them.  There are four links there, and I've no idea which one I should click on, what will happen if I do, or if any of them will have the information I want.  With "Click here to download", I've got a pretty clear idea what's going to happen:  something will start downloading as soon as I click it.  With this "ideal", I've no idea what's going to happen with anything that I click on.

Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse. 

Yes there are four links, but all of them are explicit about their topic. I personnaly agree with W3C (also because "click here" is non sense when you don't use a mouse: you could "tap" it (on a tactile screen), or select it with the keyboard (TAB keys) and press Enter, or use a vocal interface for reading the text, order to the browser to enumerate vocally selectable links and activating links by pronouncing a word like "go" or "select"...

Personnally, the W3C could have emphasized the main link, but the leading sentence is enough "Tell me more about" (the rest after the colon is a summary description of what it is, because "Amaya" is not explicit enough to know what it means) 

It seems natural to add a few more links in this example because these are topics covered by Amaya, and main topics for the W3C itself (Amaya is not a required tool for working with HTML, SVG or MatchML).

May be the W3C could have put the whole sentence "Tell me more about Amaya" in the link, or could have boldened the Amaya term, to show more explicitly that this is the main term.

But in this example, all 4 links are appropriate in the context of the page where this is used: a general page about web design in general where Amaya is not essential, but references to HTML and SVG are essential (MathML is less essential, in fact given that HTML5 now includes SVG and MathML (and a few other related standards, including XML data not listed here), it could have just used a single link to HTML; SVG and MathML are no longer needed here)

So yes, I ALWAYS avoid the "click here" (or remove it when I find them: sometimes the links are only on the very short word "here" and are almost invisible, notably on sites like our wikis that do not force underlined links because underlining does not work very well with international scripts):

We use explicit terms about the main topic of the target page, and if it is not enough explicit, we add a summary description, like the W3C did in this example (even if it could be shortened today).

The W3C also gives here a general opinion (and excellent advice) shared by lot of informed web designers, and it is appropriate here when W3C supports the development of accessibility on the web: don't assume a mouse or any hardware device. And we should not even need to depend on visual tips (that appear temporarily when hovering links with a mouse): the topic must be clearly stated without having to discover that there's a small tooltip (frequently not very accessible).

Another final reason is that the document may also be printed: will you know what the links refers to when its printed description is just "click here"? No, even if the list of links is also printed at end of pages: the URLs will be printed, but their description will just be a mere "click here" completely out of context, making the URL shown in that list completely blind without any description.


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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Philippe Verdy
In reply to this post by Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
2015-05-03 22:50 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse.  

It has not diverged sensibly: did  you read the original post, which also gives very clear reasons that are still valid today (accessibility, content indexing for search engines...).
It is now even better than this old post, not "worse".

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Yes, I read it.  Specifically, I read the "ideal" example in the original:
Reading these files requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader, a free download.
The equivalent with the new product would say something like "You can use W3C's free editor/browser, Amaya, to create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents".

The current suggestion of "Tell me more about Amaya: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents" is IMO a significant divergence:  from a factually descriptive statement to an imperative verb, for one thing (and despite the original tip saying not to tell people what they should be doing).

By the way, your suggestion of "Tell me about Amaya", with the verb "Tell me" included in the link, is also on their list of bad examples.  It therefore sounds like you partly disagree with the current incarnation of that tip, too.



-- 
Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Community Liaison
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
2015-05-03 22:50 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse.  

It has not diverged sensibly: did  you read the original post, which also gives very clear reasons that are still valid today (accessibility, content indexing for search engines...).
It is now even better than this old post, not "worse".

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Saroj Dhakal
Done for ne_NP !

2015-05-04 9:03 GMT+05:45 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Yes, I read it.  Specifically, I read the "ideal" example in the original:
Reading these files requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader, a free download.
The equivalent with the new product would say something like "You can use W3C's free editor/browser, Amaya, to create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents".

The current suggestion of "Tell me more about Amaya: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents" is IMO a significant divergence:  from a factually descriptive statement to an imperative verb, for one thing (and despite the original tip saying not to tell people what they should be doing).

By the way, your suggestion of "Tell me about Amaya", with the verb "Tell me" included in the link, is also on their list of bad examples.  It therefore sounds like you partly disagree with the current incarnation of that tip, too.



-- 
Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Community Liaison
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
2015-05-03 22:50 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse.  

It has not diverged sensibly: did  you read the original post, which also gives very clear reasons that are still valid today (accessibility, content indexing for search engines...).
It is now even better than this old post, not "worse".

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder, 03/05/2015 22:50:
> I read the w3.org <http://w3.org> "no Click Here" tip, and I think I
> disagree with it.

Well, this is not about opinions but about what works. :) I know for
sure that I click links with label "click here" and "here" less;
sometimes I watch myself being completely blind to their existence until
I force myself to inspect them. You could search for tests/experiments
proving the tip wrong, or test multiple banners at least in English.

Nemo

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Re: FDC Elections Banner Translations

Md Yosri
In reply to this post by Philippe Verdy

Any link that start to download will be terminated immediately. Those on mobile plan want advance notice if they are being forced to download anything. Those on broadband lease line may be more accomodative but still leary of virus etc download.


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From: Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>;
To: Wikimedia Translators <[hidden email]>;
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] FDC Elections Banner Translations
Sent: Mon, May 4, 2015 12:36:26 AM



2015-05-03 22:50 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ssnyder@wikimedia.org" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">ssnyder@...>:
I read the w3.org "no Click Here" tip, and I think I disagree with it.  The tip (which has a disclaimer about being non-binding and unofficial) gives four examples.  It contrasts common, familiar forms like "click here to download" with their ideal:

Tell me more about Amaya: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create HTML, SVG, and MathML documents.


As a person who has no idea what Amaya is, I actually find this "ideal" example to be the least helpful of all of them.  There are four links there, and I've no idea which one I should click on, what will happen if I do, or if any of them will have the information I want.  With "Click here to download", I've got a pretty clear idea what's going to happen:  something will start downloading as soon as I click it.  With this "ideal", I've no idea what's going to happen with anything that I click on.

Also, the tip has diverged significantly from the original, and I think it has diverged for the worse. 

Yes there are four links, but all of them are explicit about their topic. I personnaly agree with W3C (also because "click here" is non sense when you don't use a mouse: you could "tap" it (on a tactile screen), or select it with the keyboard (TAB keys) and press Enter, or use a vocal interface for reading the text, order to the browser to enumerate vocally selectable links and activating links by pronouncing a word like "go" or "select"...

Personnally, the W3C could have emphasized the main link, but the leading sentence is enough "Tell me more about" (the rest after the colon is a summary description of what it is, because "Amaya" is not explicit enough to know what it means) 

It seems natural to add a few more links in this example because these are topics covered by Amaya, and main topics for the W3C itself (Amaya is not a required tool for working with HTML, SVG or MatchML).

May be the W3C could have put the whole sentence "Tell me more about Amaya" in the link, or could have boldened the Amaya term, to show more explicitly that this is the main term.

But in this example, all 4 links are appropriate in the context of the page where this is used: a general page about web design in general where Amaya is not essential, but references to HTML and SVG are essential (MathML is less essential, in fact given that HTML5 now includes SVG and MathML (and a few other related standards, including XML data not listed here), it could have just used a single link to HTML; SVG and MathML are no longer needed here)

So yes, I ALWAYS avoid the "click here" (or remove it when I find them: sometimes the links are only on the very short word "here" and are almost invisible, notably on sites like our wikis that do not force underlined links because underlining does not work very well with international scripts):

We use explicit terms about the main topic of the target page, and if it is not enough explicit, we add a summary description, like the W3C did in this example (even if it could be shortened today).

The W3C also gives here a general opinion (and excellent advice) shared by lot of informed web designers, and it is appropriate here when W3C supports the development of accessibility on the web: don't assume a mouse or any hardware device. And we should not even need to depend on visual tips (that appear temporarily when hovering links with a mouse): the topic must be clearly stated without having to discover that there's a small tooltip (frequently not very accessible).

Another final reason is that the document may also be printed: will you know what the links refers to when its printed description is just "click here"? No, even if the list of links is also printed at end of pages: the URLs will be printed, but their description will just be a mere "click here" completely out of context, making the URL shown in that list completely blind without any description.


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