FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
48 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Marc Riddell
When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?
And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good, objective
look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.

And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation with
you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would you have
done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in silence?
That, alone, speaks volumes.

Marc Riddell

----------
From: bawolff <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: [hidden email], Wikinews mailing list
<[hidden email]>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:34:14 -0700
To: Wikinews mailing list <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning:
contains rant>

[I happened to stumble upon what appears to be an aftermath of an edit
war, and am quite disgusted by it. The following is basically a rant
about it, as I'm not really sure how best to bring it up]


I've recently noticed a marked increased in incivility between
contributors on Wikinews. I find this really disturbing as it is often
between admins who one would think know better. For example (And I'm
not trying to pick on anyone, these are just some random ones i came
across):

*"But no, you've gotta be an asshole just like always"
*"A small amount of brain activity would lead to the presumption that
someone in my position knows what they're doing"
*"I suggest you get the fuck off your high horse or get the fuck out of
dodge"
*"they are _MY_ comment sections and _I_ can write what ever the hell _I_
want."

Now, I know I am taking these out of context, but to be blunt I don't
care if the context was responding to poop vandalism - It is
incredibly inappropriate for admins to say these things under any
circumstances. If these were new users making these comments, they
would have been blocked in the neighborhood of 2 weeks to a year,
maybe even indefinitely.

How can we really expect to recruit and retain new contributors, when
this is how the long time contributors are treated?

-Bawolff

_______________________________________________
Wikinews-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikinews-l


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Andrew Whitworth-2
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?
> And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good, objective
> look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
> atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.

Not all projects. I'd like to take this opportunity to shamelessly
plug Wikibooks, which is as close to utopia as we get here in wiki
world. We don't fight, there's very little hostility, and a relatively
small number of hardworking users are producing a pretty impressive
group of free textbooks. </shameless plug>.

Projects are self-administering. If you feel the projects are not
functioning properly it is the fault of the project, not the fault of
the foundation. Get your admins to block your trouble users, and if
the admins themselves are causing trouble then petition to have them
removed. Everybody wants the WMF "hand of god" to swing down from the
sky and deliver relief to various community problems. It won't happen
and it can't possibly work anyway. Change and solutions have to come
from within, or they won't come at all.

> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation with
> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would you have
> done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in silence?
> That, alone, speaks volumes.

And what response do you want from him? This isn't his problem to solve.

--Andrew Whitworth

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Marc Riddell

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
>> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?
>> And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good, objective
>> look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
>> atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.

on 2/5/09 9:40 AM, Andrew Whitworth at [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Not all projects. I'd like to take this opportunity to shamelessly
> plug Wikibooks, which is as close to utopia as we get here in wiki
> world. We don't fight, there's very little hostility, and a relatively
> small number of hardworking users are producing a pretty impressive
> group of free textbooks. </shameless plug>.

There should be no shame in pride of one's work, Andrew ;-). I do
congratulate you and your editors in maintaining a workspace that is both
open and civil.
>
> Projects are self-administering. If you feel the projects are not
> functioning properly it is the fault of the project, not the fault of
> the foundation. Get your admins to block your trouble users, and if
> the admins themselves are causing trouble then petition to have them
> removed. Everybody wants the WMF "hand of god" to swing down from the
> sky and deliver relief to various community problems. It won't happen
> and it can't possibly work anyway. Change and solutions have to come
> from within, or they won't come at all.

I have been trying for over two years to bring this issue to the serious
attention of the "powers that be" in the English Wikipedia. My messages are
met either with a "there he goes again" attitude, or are not acknowledged at
all. Where does one go from there if not the Foundation itself?
>
>> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation with
>> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would you have
>> done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in silence?
>> That, alone, speaks volumes.
>
> And what response do you want from him? This isn't his problem to solve.

In a professional setting I would expect an acknowledgement that the email
was at least received.

Marc


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Andrew Whitworth-2
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Marc Riddell
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have been trying for over two years to bring this issue to the serious
> attention of the "powers that be" in the English Wikipedia. My messages are
> met either with a "there he goes again" attitude, or are not acknowledged at
> all. Where does one go from there if not the Foundation itself?

The foundation is not likely to be able to do anything, even if it is
willing (which I doubt). It makes some sense to treat them as the
authority figure of last resort, but that isn't reality.

If a project so large in size and scope as English Wikipedia is having
these problems with hostility and incivility, you're maybe seeing a
manifestation of problems in human nature itself. See [[w:Dubar's
Number]] for more information about large groups like this. If you
can't fix the problem from within English Wikipedia, then the problems
are likely to be unfixable.

--Andrew Whitworth

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Marc Riddell

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Marc Riddell
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have been trying for over two years to bring this issue to the serious
>> attention of the "powers that be" in the English Wikipedia. My messages are
>> met either with a "there he goes again" attitude, or are not acknowledged at
>> all. Where does one go from there if not the Foundation itself?

on 2/5/09 10:45 AM, Andrew Whitworth at [hidden email] wrote:
>
> The foundation is not likely to be able to do anything, even if it is
> willing (which I doubt). It makes some sense to treat them as the
> authority figure of last resort, but that isn't reality.

A sad state of affairs.
>
> If a project so large in size and scope as English Wikipedia is having
> these problems with hostility and incivility, you're maybe seeing a
> manifestation of problems in human nature itself. See [[w:Dubar's
> Number]] for more information about large groups like this. If you
> can't fix the problem from within English Wikipedia, then the problems
> are likely to be unfixable.
>
Andrew, it is not the size of the group that is the issue, but how that
group is managed. And there is a huge cultural difference between "control"
and "management". It all rests with the skillful leadership of that group.
It is my professional business to know such things.

Marc


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?

One does not know deteriorated discourse unless they've, you know,
lived in the projects.[1]

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Andrew Whitworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If a project so large in size and scope as English Wikipedia is having
> these problems with hostility and incivility, you're maybe seeing a
> manifestation of problems in human nature itself. See [[w:Dubar's
> Number]] for more information about large groups like this. If you
> can't fix the problem from within English Wikipedia, then the problems
> are likely to be unfixable.

Interesting article. I just realized my Bacon number is higher than my
Dunbar number, thanks Andrew.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Marc Riddell
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Andrew, it is not the size of the group that is the issue, but how that
> group is managed. And there is a huge cultural difference between "control"
> and "management". It all rests with the skillful leadership of that group.
> It is my professional business to know such things.

Yes, "management" implies that those subjected to it enjoy some degree
of freedom, so that it still seems fun for them. Treading lightly in
this regard is crucial.

Or in the business world, assuming a supervisory position most often
imply a departure from actual work. Even one's de jure duty of
"supervising" can easily be delegated to a lower person: "Go supervise
these people." ... "B-but you're the boss here, not me." ... "Yes, I
am your boss. Now: go supervise these people." ... "So I'm their boss
now?" ... "Yup."

Conversations like this usually mark the birth of a workplace Ponzi
scheme. I've been in scenarios like this much of my adult life.

—C.W.

[1] the "t" is silent.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Cary Bass-4
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Marc Riddell wrote:
> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?
> And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good,
objective
> look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
> atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.
>
> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation
with
> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would you have
> done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in silence?
> That, alone, speaks volumes.
First of all, Erik may or may not have received your email, and the
reasons he did or did not respond to you can be immense and varied.
You should not make assumptions based on a lack of communication by
anyone, staff or community member.

Secondly, what gives you the impression that Foundation staff are able
to sweep in and make everyone behave; or furthermore, why should you
not assume that we've not already tried some way to encourage
conviviality and discourage attacks. I have personally found myself
in the predicament of trying to solve issues for people and getting my
head bitten off by the very people I was trying to help! At least one
of those individuals resorted to calling me denigrating names on
lists cc'd to numerous folks, including coworkers, Jimmy Wales, and my
boss; and his fellow complainants did nothing to object.

The Foundation, as successful as the last fundraiser went, remains to
having limited resources. Our volunteering model is next to
impossible to define, given the enormity of our community.

Discussions take place on IRC about the simple idea of removing admin
access to anyone who uses ugly or rude block messages. This idea is
met with huge opposition; by solid contributors. You're asking
people to stop acting like people.

Perhaps we should follow the Wikinews discussion more closely...even
participate in it, rather than expanding it to include all of the
Foundation projects in one fell swoop. Given that the community is
much smaller there, a solution might take place that will result in
people being more proactive about reducing ugliness and being kinder
to one another and promoting an assumption of good faith.

Maybe Wikinews can even come up with a model that can be adopted by
other projects.

Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFJizBfyQg4JSymDYkRAt5IAKCKf41wFBKeOZg19zjZsFqLWSLrXACggzlb
at4bw0uJgrFWEMPryewIs8Y=
=K5tT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
2009/2/5 Marc Riddell <[hidden email]>:
> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation with
> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email.

You're right - I apologize. I'll send a response to your original mail
later today.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Cary Bass-4

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Marc Riddell wrote:
>> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
>> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?
>> And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good,
> objective
>> look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
>> atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.
>>
>> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email conversation
> with
>> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would you have
>> done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in silence?
>> That, alone, speaks volumes.

on 2/5/09 1:30 PM, Cary Bass at [hidden email] wrote:

> First of all, Erik may or may not have received your email, and the
> reasons he did or did not respond to you can be immense and varied.
> You should not make assumptions based on a lack of communication by
> anyone, staff or community member.

This is an issue for Erik to respond to (or not); not for you to make
excuses for him.
>
> Secondly, what gives you the impression that Foundation staff are able
> to sweep in and make everyone behave; or furthermore, why should you
> not assume that we've not already tried some way to encourage
> conviviality and discourage attacks.

Where? When?

> I have personally found myself
> in the predicament of trying to solve issues for people and getting my
> head bitten off by the very people I was trying to help!

This is not about solving specific issues for people; it is about teaching
them how to civilly and constructively solve their own. Learn the
difference.

> At least one
> of those individuals resorted to calling me denigrating names on
> lists cc'd to numerous folks, including coworkers, Jimmy Wales, and my
> boss; and his fellow complainants did nothing to object.
>
> The Foundation, as successful as the last fundraiser went, remains to
> having limited resources.

Oh, please, Cary, money has nothing to do with what I am talking about, and
you should know it.

> Our volunteering model is next to
> impossible to define, given the enormity of our community.

This is purely an excuse for your inaction.
>
> Discussions take place on IRC about the simple idea of removing admin
> access to anyone who uses ugly or rude block messages. This idea is
> met with huge opposition; by solid contributors.

"Solid" (whatever that is) contributors are objecting to ruling out "ugly or
rude messages"!?! Time for a new definition of solidity.

> You're asking
> people to stop acting like people.

No, I am asking that people work and communicate civilly and constructively
with one another so that important matters can be resolved.

>
> Perhaps we should follow the Wikinews discussion more closely...even
> participate in it, rather than expanding it to include all of the
> Foundation projects in one fell swoop. Given that the community is
> much smaller there, a solution might take place that will result in
> people being more proactive about reducing ugliness and being kinder
> to one another and promoting an assumption of good faith.
>
> Maybe Wikinews can even come up with a model that can be adopted by
> other projects.

It is clear that the Wikinews Project HAS come up with a successful model.
The question is: are the other Projects even listening?

Marc Riddell


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Michael Snow-3
Marc Riddell wrote:
> It is clear that the Wikinews Project HAS come up with a successful model.
> The question is: are the other Projects even listening?
>  
What are you suggesting is the successful model Wikinews has come up
with? I thought you were citing Wikinews as an example of the problem,
rather than the solution.

--Michael Snow

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I have been trying for over two years to bring this issue to the serious
> attention of the "powers that be" in the English Wikipedia. My messages are
> met either with a "there he goes again" attitude, or are not acknowledged
> at
> all. Where does one go from there if not the Foundation itself?
>

Part of the problem is that "the powers that be" in the English Wikipedia is
a wide spread, very diffuse group, other than Jimbo.

A larger number of elder statesman admins / experienced users are discussing
civility issue problems on-wiki, which is a good sign.

Part of the problem is that there isn't an entirely functional community
consensus on what levels of incivility deserve intervention and what don't.
I and a number of others are quietly working to establish a functional
working standard, by intervening more actively, but several of us have been
slapped by parts of the community in the process.

Fred's getting more grumpy about it in public of late, I've had my moments,
etc.

I think that there is not realistically going to be a sudden sea change on
this issue.  But I also think that we realistically can create a momentum
for improvement over a multi-year timescale.

That it will probably take that long is unfortunate, but large online
communities become very unwieldy in some ways.  Having realism about the
community dynamics is a necessary step in engaging in them as an agent of
change.

Jimbo would have to make it a major in-community priority of his, or Arbcom
would have to make it a major in-community priority of theirs, to make it
faster.  I think Jimbo's too busy and Arbcom is too unwieldy in one sense
and focused on more specific problems.


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Philippe|Wiki
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Marc, without denying or confirming there are problems with discourse  
at Wikinews (because I have no personal knowledge), I would posit that  
your messages about this topic to this list have been a little...  
terse.  Cary was proposing some perfectly valid thoughts (and money  
DOES have to do with this problem... who do you think pays the  
Foundation people that you want to swoop in from on high?  They don't  
work for beads, you know...) and you acted fairly aggressively towards  
him.

Slow down, take a deep breath, and think about detailing the issues  
specifically, rather than some broad sweeping statement.  Then, we as  
a list can start to think through what we - the volunteers who make up  
this particular list - can offer in the way of help (if anything).

I know you're frustrated.  I bet I would be too.  I'm just suggesting  
that maybe there's another way to handle this...


__________________
Philippe|Wiki
[hidden email]

[[en:User:Philippe]]




On Feb 5, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:

>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Marc Riddell wrote:
>>> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something  
>>> terribly
>>> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the  
>>> Projects?
>>> And this trend is certainly not confined to Wikinews. Take a good,
>> objective
>>> look at some of the dialogue occurring on the English Wikipedia. The
>>> atmosphere is becoming angrier and more hostile by the day.
>>>
>>> And, Erik, when I broached this subject in a private email  
>>> conversation
>> with
>>> you, you never even acknowledged receipt of that email. What would  
>>> you have
>>> done if we were speaking to each other in person - stare at me in  
>>> silence?
>>> That, alone, speaks volumes.
>
> on 2/5/09 1:30 PM, Cary Bass at [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> First of all, Erik may or may not have received your email, and the
>> reasons he did or did not respond to you can be immense and varied.
>> You should not make assumptions based on a lack of communication by
>> anyone, staff or community member.
>
> This is an issue for Erik to respond to (or not); not for you to make
> excuses for him.
>>
>> Secondly, what gives you the impression that Foundation staff are  
>> able
>> to sweep in and make everyone behave; or furthermore, why should you
>> not assume that we've not already tried some way to encourage
>> conviviality and discourage attacks.
>
> Where? When?
>
>> I have personally found myself
>> in the predicament of trying to solve issues for people and getting  
>> my
>> head bitten off by the very people I was trying to help!
>
> This is not about solving specific issues for people; it is about  
> teaching
> them how to civilly and constructively solve their own. Learn the
> difference.
>
>> At least one
>> of those individuals resorted to calling me denigrating names on
>> lists cc'd to numerous folks, including coworkers, Jimmy Wales, and  
>> my
>> boss; and his fellow complainants did nothing to object.
>>
>> The Foundation, as successful as the last fundraiser went, remains to
>> having limited resources.
>
> Oh, please, Cary, money has nothing to do with what I am talking  
> about, and
> you should know it.
>
>> Our volunteering model is next to
>> impossible to define, given the enormity of our community.
>
> This is purely an excuse for your inaction.
>>
>> Discussions take place on IRC about the simple idea of removing admin
>> access to anyone who uses ugly or rude block messages. This idea is
>> met with huge opposition; by solid contributors.
>
> "Solid" (whatever that is) contributors are objecting to ruling out  
> "ugly or
> rude messages"!?! Time for a new definition of solidity.
>
>> You're asking
>> people to stop acting like people.
>
> No, I am asking that people work and communicate civilly and  
> constructively
> with one another so that important matters can be resolved.
>>
>> Perhaps we should follow the Wikinews discussion more closely...even
>> participate in it, rather than expanding it to include all of the
>> Foundation projects in one fell swoop. Given that the community is
>> much smaller there, a solution might take place that will result in
>> people being more proactive about reducing ugliness and being kinder
>> to one another and promoting an assumption of good faith.
>>
>> Maybe Wikinews can even come up with a model that can be adopted by
>> other projects.
>
> It is clear that the Wikinews Project HAS come up with a successful  
> model.
> The question is: are the other Projects even listening?
>
> Marc Riddell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Guillaume Paumier
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Hello,

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is an issue for Erik to respond to (or not); not for you to make
> excuses for him.

<snip>

> This is purely an excuse for your inaction.

<snip>

> No, I am asking that people work and communicate civilly and constructively
> with one another so that important matters can be resolved.

May I suggest that you try to follow this piece of advice of yours? I
am sure you've got plenty of interesting ideas to solve this issue,
unfortunately your anger is hiding them very efficiently.

--
Guillaume Paumier
[[m:User:guillom]]

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
2009/2/5 Marc Riddell <[hidden email]>:
> When will you people finally acknowledge that there is something terribly
> wrong with the deteriorating level of discourse occurring in the Projects?

Marc, this may be a surprise to you, but you're not a lone voice in
the wilderness. Everyone with experience knows that many of our
communities are dysfunctional to a greater or lesser degree; we have
hordes of people who fundamentally don't get along and don't seem to
want to do so.

It's not like we've all ignored it forever. Everyone who is committed
to the projects wants a more pleasant working environment. We've
wanted it for years, we've discussed it for years, and we've all tried
to lance the boils in our own way (in some cases more dramatically
than others).

You can see the results we've had: viz, not a lot. It's not like we
can put our foot down and say "play nice, now, guys" and things get
better. If we could solve this problem easily, we'd have done it years
ago.

The reason you keep getting a "there he goes again" response on the
lists is, well, that we keep hearing demands to do more from you, to
somehow change the system. But the fact that we haven't done that yet
isn't because no-one has ever listened to you - it means it's a damn
big problem, and everything we've tried so far doesn't work. Being
told to do it, when we all want to do it *and can't*, just gets
people's backs up.

So, please, if you know how we can make this situation better, *tell
us*. Please explain, clearly and practically, what you think we need
to do. You clearly have some understanding of the issue, but I hope
you can see that you've really not been managing to communicate it to
any of us!

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-3
Michael Snow wrote:
> Marc Riddell wrote:
>  
>> It is clear that the Wikinews Project HAS come up with a successful model.
>> The question is: are the other Projects even listening?
>>    
> What are you suggesting is the successful model Wikinews has come up
> with? I thought you were citing Wikinews as an example of the problem,
> rather than the solution.
>  

I think he misunderstood something.  Cary said: "Maybe Wikinews can even
come up with a model that can be adopted by other projects." Marc seems
to have read this as though they already had.

Ec

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
2009/2/5 Marc Riddell <[hidden email]>:

> I have been trying for over two years to bring this issue to the serious
> attention of the "powers that be" in the English Wikipedia. My messages are
> met either with a "there he goes again" attitude, or are not acknowledged at
> all. Where does one go from there if not the Foundation itself?


If you mean posting to wikien-l about it, the people there have
suggested that you have to take it to the wiki. You demurred from
this.

The Arbitration Committee might be a point of approach.


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Philippe|Wiki
Philippe|Wiki wrote:

> Marc, without denying or confirming there are problems with discourse  
> at Wikinews (because I have no personal knowledge), I would posit that  
> your messages about this topic to this list have been a little...  
> terse.  Cary was proposing some perfectly valid thoughts (and money  
> DOES have to do with this problem... who do you think pays the  
> Foundation people that you want to swoop in from on high?  They don't  
> work for beads, you know...) and you acted fairly aggressively towards  
> him.
>
>
>  
I don't think that it's a problem that can easily be solved by throwing
money at it.  The Securities and Exchange Commission likely had more
than enough money to do its job, and the likes of Madoff still managed
to get around it.

Maybe if we could get all the problem makers and problem solvers
together, and locked them in together until they fixed things the
results would be interesting.  That would cost a lot for travel and
accommodations, but I'm not prepared to show great optimism that such a
solution will come about.

Ec

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Michael Snow-3
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Michael Snow wrote:
>  
>> Marc Riddell wrote:  
>>    
>>> It is clear that the Wikinews Project HAS come up with a successful model.
>>> The question is: are the other Projects even listening?
>>>      
>> What are you suggesting is the successful model Wikinews has come up
>> with? I thought you were citing Wikinews as an example of the problem,
>> rather than the solution.
>>  
>>    
> I think he misunderstood something.  Cary said: "Maybe Wikinews can even
> come up with a model that can be adopted by other projects." Marc seems
> to have read this as though they already had.
>  
Considering that the emphasis on "has" in all-caps indicates that Marc
thought he was correcting that statement by Cary, I have a hard time
seeing how what Cary said could be the basis for Marc's assertion.

--Michael Snow

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Andrew Gray-3
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>wrote:

> You can see the results we've had: viz, not a lot. It's not like we
> can put our foot down and say "play nice, now, guys" and things get
> better. If we could solve this problem easily, we'd have done it years
> ago.


To be fair - we're playing really nice with offenders, rather than playing
nasty hardball.

We could politely play nasty hardball, and squash a few people under our
polite polished jackboots of propriety.

It wouldn't necessarily be a self-contradiction to use excessive force to
try and impose politeness.  That said, the ultimate problem is community
interaction issues that incivility and abuse cause, and abusive admin
responses make *that* worse even if we help the incivility problem, so it's
probably not a wise approach.

That said, making more of the civility blocks stick would be helpful.  The
sense of the community that some of the problematic contributors are more
worth having than asking to leave is probably a mistake.


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FW: [Wikinews-l] Increased incivility at wikinews [en] <warning: contains rant>

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Marc Riddell wrote:
> on 2/5/09 10:45 AM, Andrew Whitworth at [hidden email] wrote:
>  
>> The foundation is not likely to be able to do anything, even if it is
>> willing (which I doubt). It makes some sense to treat them as the
>> authority figure of last resort, but that isn't reality.
>>    
> A sad state of affairs.
>  

Yes, it is.  Nevertheless it is a fundamental paradox in this kind of
project.  We grow up with an old authoritarian paradigm where people are
taught to take orders, and even expect to be told what to do and how to
do it.  In the new paradigm of sharing we expect people to take
responsibility for what they say and do, and to use common sense in
their approach to problems.  A co-operative or consensual model is
difficult when worth has been defined in term of the rights (or rites)
of winning and losing.

There are people out there willing to see themselves badly injured in a
traffic accident as long as they believe that doing so was consistent
with their "correct" interpretation of the traffic laws.

>> If a project so large in size and scope as English Wikipedia is having
>> these problems with hostility and incivility, you're maybe seeing a
>> manifestation of problems in human nature itself. See [[w:Dubar's
>> Number]] for more information about large groups like this. If you
>> can't fix the problem from within English Wikipedia, then the problems
>> are likely to be unfixable.
>>
>>    
> Andrew, it is not the size of the group that is the issue, but how that
> group is managed. And there is a huge cultural difference between "control"
> and "management". It all rests with the skillful leadership of that group.
> It is my professional business to know such things.


As I understand it you do very good work with some very problematical
individuals, but those individuals have a very strong incentive for
co-operation. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Andrew's observation.  
Size does matter.  In education, smaller classes and smaller schools
tend to have better results than big learning factories.  The question
remains: how can that observation be used to greater advantage?

Ec

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
123