Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

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Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Andreas Kolbe-2
A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
Wikipedia"

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745

following an earlier post by her to [[User talk:Jimbo Wales]] in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=474195137#The_animated_gif_file_of_a_man_mastrubating_is_in_a_public_domain._Do_we_need_it_in_public_domain.3F

Jimmy mentioned that the image filter is on the agenda of this week's board
meeting again.

Andreas
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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Svip
On 2 February 2012 08:35, Andreas K. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> Wikipedia"
>
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745

And we are supposed to care about Facebook pages, why?

> following an earlier post by her to [[User talk:Jimbo Wales]] in Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=474195137#The_animated_gif_file_of_a_man_mastrubating_is_in_a_public_domain._Do_we_need_it_in_public_domain.3F

I would not consider any part of that pornography.  Isn't pornography
supposed to get your fluids going rather than ... well not?

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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Andreas Kolbe-2
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> Wikipedia"
>
>
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
>

If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she states,
she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion. I do
not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with their
own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their agenda
and go to promote it elsewhere.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Andreas Kolbe-2
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> > Wikipedia"
> >
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
> >
>
> If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she states,
> she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion. I do
> not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with their
> own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their agenda
> and go to promote it elsewhere.
>
>

Well, it's relevant to the extent that she came across a masturbation video
while looking for something completely different. (I think she said she was
looking up "roll over".) Some people don't like that. It's a problem we've
discussed before:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems

The situation is still unchanged.

A.
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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

M. Williamson
Yes, and some people don't like the fact that we tell the truth about, say,
the Taiwan situation (or at least we try our very best to), or the
Tienanmen Square protests of 1989.

I think it's very stupid to equate "people don't like this" to "this is a
problem".

So yes, the situation is still unchanged, but in my opinion it is a GOOD
thing that it's still unchanged. The advertising situation on Wikipedia is
"still unchanged", but unchanged situations don't have to be bad, and in
this case I am a firm believer that the status quo is far better than what
this woman (and many image filter proposals) is proposing.


2012/2/2 Andreas K. <[hidden email]>

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> > > Wikipedia"
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
> > >
> >
> > If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she states,
> > she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion. I do
> > not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with their
> > own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their agenda
> > and go to promote it elsewhere.
> >
> >
>
> Well, it's relevant to the extent that she came across a masturbation video
> while looking for something completely different. (I think she said she was
> looking up "roll over".) Some people don't like that. It's a problem we've
> discussed before:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems
>
> The situation is still unchanged.
>
> A.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

M. Williamson
Perhaps a better example is the article on Santa Claus. If you look at the
talkpage, you'll find a couple of people protesting that it isn't a
"child-friendly" article, by which they really mean that we don't "play
along" with the Santa charade like NORAD, Google and countless other
prominent examples. Of course, not playing along is the CORRECT course of
action, that is what our principles tell us to do - we shouldn't be
knowingly providing false information to anybody, whatever our intention.
(In my opinion, the Santa Claus article doesn't state clearly enough that
Santa Claus is not a real person, due to the persistent efforts of two or
three editors who want the article to be more "child friendly")

So yes, lots of people think what we're doing is wrong, but so what? You
can never please anybody. That is why you need to choose a set of
principles and stick with them. At least that way, when people don't like
what you're doing, you can point to your principles and say "Hey, we've
always been this way" and you get credibility from having had the same
policy or position all along.

2012/2/6 M. Williamson <[hidden email]>

> Yes, and some people don't like the fact that we tell the truth about,
> say, the Taiwan situation (or at least we try our very best to), or the
> Tienanmen Square protests of 1989.
>
> I think it's very stupid to equate "people don't like this" to "this is a
> problem".
>
> So yes, the situation is still unchanged, but in my opinion it is a GOOD
> thing that it's still unchanged. The advertising situation on Wikipedia is
> "still unchanged", but unchanged situations don't have to be bad, and in
> this case I am a firm believer that the status quo is far better than what
> this woman (and many image filter proposals) is proposing.
>
>
> 2012/2/2 Andreas K. <[hidden email]>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> > > A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
>> > > Wikipedia"
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
>> > >
>> >
>> > If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she states,
>> > she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion. I
>> do
>> > not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with their
>> > own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their agenda
>> > and go to promote it elsewhere.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Well, it's relevant to the extent that she came across a masturbation
>> video
>> while looking for something completely different. (I think she said she
>> was
>> looking up "roll over".) Some people don't like that. It's a problem we've
>> discussed before:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems
>>
>> The situation is still unchanged.
>>
>> A.
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Anthony-73
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:57 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So yes, lots of people think what we're doing is wrong, but so what? You
> can never please anybody. That is why you need to choose a set of
> principles and stick with them. At least that way, when people don't like
> what you're doing, you can point to your principles and say "Hey, we've
> always been this way" and you get credibility from having had the same
> policy or position all along.

Only if you state what your policy or position actually is.  What is
the principle?

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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:52 AM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, and some people don't like the fact that we tell the truth about, say,
> the Taiwan situation (or at least we try our very best to), or the
> Tienanmen Square protests of 1989.
>


So if members of the public looking for a sound file of tolling bells in
Commons get
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Masturbation_Techniques_-_tolling_of_the_bells_(animated).gif
as
their first search hit in Commons, this somehow strikes a blow for freedom
in the way our coverage of the Tiananmen Square protests does?




> I think it's very stupid to equate "people don't like this" to "this is a
> problem".
>
> So yes, the situation is still unchanged, but in my opinion it is a GOOD
> thing that it's still unchanged. The advertising situation on Wikipedia is
> "still unchanged", but unchanged situations don't have to be bad, and in
> this case I am a firm believer that the status quo is far better than what
> this woman (and many image filter proposals) is proposing.
>
>
> 2012/2/2 Andreas K. <[hidden email]>
>
> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> > > > Wikipedia"
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
> > > >
> > >
> > > If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she states,
> > > she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion. I
> do
> > > not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with
> their
> > > own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their
> agenda
> > > and go to promote it elsewhere.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well, it's relevant to the extent that she came across a masturbation
> video
> > while looking for something completely different. (I think she said she
> was
> > looking up "roll over".) Some people don't like that. It's a problem
> we've
> > discussed before:
> >
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems
> >
> > The situation is still unchanged.
> >
> > A.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Facebook Group re pornography on Wikipedia

M. Williamson
Finding nudity offensive is not a cultural universal. Members of some
cultures may be offended by looking at certain animals full-on or in
photographs; what if those animals popped up in search? Where does it end?
Where do we draw the line?

What do we hide (or erase) and what do we keep unhidden? If you look at it
from a monocultural perspective, the answer seems not so hard - perhaps we
just hide everything showing sexual organs (but then does this include
female breasts?) and violence. Some people may advocate hiding images that
contain words like "fuck".

Of course, in other cultures other things are offensive, and there are
literally thousands of different cultures on this planet with differing
sensibilities and different ideas of what is right and what is wrong. The
only strategy I support is one in which we allow the unrestricted display
of everything that is legal and include disclaimers that we are not
intended as a children's site and that adults should make careful use of
their own judgement about letting their children read Wikipedia. It is not
our responsibility.

2012/2/9 Andreas K. <[hidden email]>

> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:52 AM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, and some people don't like the fact that we tell the truth about,
> say,
> > the Taiwan situation (or at least we try our very best to), or the
> > Tienanmen Square protests of 1989.
> >
>
>
> So if members of the public looking for a sound file of tolling bells in
> Commons get
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Masturbation_Techniques_-_tolling_of_the_bells_(animated).gif
> as
> their first search hit in Commons, this somehow strikes a blow for freedom
> in the way our coverage of the Tiananmen Square protests does?
>
>
>
>
> > I think it's very stupid to equate "people don't like this" to "this is a
> > problem".
> >
> > So yes, the situation is still unchanged, but in my opinion it is a GOOD
> > thing that it's still unchanged. The advertising situation on Wikipedia
> is
> > "still unchanged", but unchanged situations don't have to be bad, and in
> > this case I am a firm believer that the status quo is far better than
> what
> > this woman (and many image filter proposals) is proposing.
> >
> >
> > 2012/2/2 Andreas K. <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:10 +0000, "Andreas K." <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > A Wikimedian has just started a Facebook page "Stop pornography on
> > > > > Wikipedia"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-pornography-on-Wikipedia/307245972661745
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If I read it correct, she opened a Facebook group since, as she
> states,
> > > > she could not find anybody on Wikipedia who would share her opinion.
> I
> > do
> > > > not see why we should worry about this. There are many people with
> > their
> > > > own agenda who could not find anybody on Wikipedia to share their
> > agenda
> > > > and go to promote it elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, it's relevant to the extent that she came across a masturbation
> > video
> > > while looking for something completely different. (I think she said she
> > was
> > > looking up "roll over".) Some people don't like that. It's a problem
> > we've
> > > discussed before:
> > >
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems
> > >
> > > The situation is still unchanged.
> > >
> > > A.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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