Fair use has come back to bite us

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Fair use has come back to bite us

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Some kind soul wishes to link to us because we have an excellent
collection of posters. I've removed the personal details, but I think
the legal ramifications of this are pretty clear.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [HelpDesk-l] Important Information about your site
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:11:16 -0600
From: (NAME REMOVED)
Reply-To: Help desk for questions about Wikimedia projects
<[hidden email]>
To: Helpdesk-l <[hidden email]>

Hello my name is (NAME REMOVED). I am seeking out possible link
partners that our visitors would be interesting in visiting. I've
found your website to be a very good fit for our visitors. I have
already gone ahead and added your link to our website at (WEBSITE REMOVED)

I am contacting you to see if its ok to have done so, Also, I
would like to ask if you mind linking back to us? If so, please
use the linking details below and send me the location of our
link on your website.

Here is our linking details:
Tilte: Where Can I Buy Posters?
Description: Where Can I Buy Posters website gives you the chance
to choose from 300,000 Posters & Prints, Designer-Framed Prints,
Canvas Transfers and More...100% Guaranteed!

We've got several PR6 and 7 websites, so we expect this site to
become atleast a PR5 within 1 month and we eventually become a 6
or 7 in 2-3 months.

I hope this can be a way for us to benefit our visitors with
excellent content. Hope to hear from you soon.

(NAME REMOVED)
(SITE REMOVED)

---------------------------------------------------------

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Re: Fair use has come back to bite us

Tim Starling
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

> Some kind soul wishes to link to us because we have an excellent
> collection of posters. I've removed the personal details, but I think
> the legal ramifications of this are pretty clear.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [HelpDesk-l] Important Information about your site
> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:11:16 -0600
> From: (NAME REMOVED)
> Reply-To: Help desk for questions about Wikimedia projects
> <[hidden email]>
> To: Helpdesk-l <[hidden email]>
>
> Hello my name is (NAME REMOVED). I am seeking out possible link
> partners that our visitors would be interesting in visiting. I've
> found your website to be a very good fit for our visitors. I have
> already gone ahead and added your link to our website at (WEBSITE REMOVED)
>
> I am contacting you to see if its ok to have done so, Also, I
> would like to ask if you mind linking back to us? If so, please
> use the linking details below and send me the location of our
> link on your website.
>
> Here is our linking details:
> Tilte: Where Can I Buy Posters?
> Description: Where Can I Buy Posters website gives you the chance
> to choose from 300,000 Posters & Prints, Designer-Framed Prints,
> Canvas Transfers and More...100% Guaranteed!
>
> We've got several PR6 and 7 websites, so we expect this site to
> become atleast a PR5 within 1 month and we eventually become a 6
> or 7 in 2-3 months.
>
> I hope this can be a way for us to benefit our visitors with
> excellent content. Hope to hear from you soon.

That looks like link exchange spam to me. Some of the OTRS queues get it every day. I very much
doubt the sender knew anything more about Wikipedia's image use policy than he knew about the
thousands of other email addresses he spammed. Besides, Wikipedia has long since passed the point of
being impressed by PR 6 or 7 ;)

-- Tim Starling

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Re: Re: Fair use has come back to bite us

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Tim Starling wrote:

> Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
>
>>Some kind soul wishes to link to us because we have an excellent
>>collection of posters. I've removed the personal details, but I think
>>the legal ramifications of this are pretty clear.
>>
>>-------- Original Message --------
>>Subject: [HelpDesk-l] Important Information about your site
>>Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:11:16 -0600
>>From: (NAME REMOVED)
>>Reply-To: Help desk for questions about Wikimedia projects
>><[hidden email]>
>>To: Helpdesk-l <[hidden email]>
>>
>>Hello my name is (NAME REMOVED). I am seeking out possible link
>>partners that our visitors would be interesting in visiting. I've
>>found your website to be a very good fit for our visitors. I have
>>already gone ahead and added your link to our website at (WEBSITE REMOVED)
>>
>>I am contacting you to see if its ok to have done so, Also, I
>>would like to ask if you mind linking back to us? If so, please
>>use the linking details below and send me the location of our
>>link on your website.
>>
>>Here is our linking details:
>>Tilte: Where Can I Buy Posters?
>>Description: Where Can I Buy Posters website gives you the chance
>>to choose from 300,000 Posters & Prints, Designer-Framed Prints,
>>Canvas Transfers and More...100% Guaranteed!
>>
>>We've got several PR6 and 7 websites, so we expect this site to
>>become atleast a PR5 within 1 month and we eventually become a 6
>>or 7 in 2-3 months.
>>
>>I hope this can be a way for us to benefit our visitors with
>>excellent content. Hope to hear from you soon.
>
>
> That looks like link exchange spam to me. Some of the OTRS queues get it every day. I very much
> doubt the sender knew anything more about Wikipedia's image use policy than he knew about the
> thousands of other email addresses he spammed. Besides, Wikipedia has long since passed the point of
> being impressed by PR 6 or 7 ;)
>
Oh, it is, but it's the reason they want to link to us which is
worrying. We should *not* be a collection of movie posters or album covers.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Re: Re: Fair use has come back to bite us

Nick Boalch
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> Oh, it is, but it's the reason they want to link to us which is
> worrying. We should *not* be a collection of movie posters or album covers.

We aren't. We're an encyclopaedia that illustrates its articles about
movies or albums with images of their posters or covers.

Cheers,

N.

--
Nicholas Boalch
School of Modern Languages & Cultures       Tel: +44 (0) 191 334 3456
University of Durham                        Fax: +44 (0) 191 334 3421
New Elvet, Durham DH1 3JT, UK               WWW: http://nick.frejol.org/
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Our Pokémon gallery

Haukur Þorgeirsson
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)
> Oh, it is, but it's the reason they want to link to us which is
> worrying. We should *not* be a collection of movie posters or album
> covers.

Look at this yummie gallery of 200 copyrighted images:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images

Especially yummy, if you wanted to prosecute Wikipedia, is the fact that
the same entity holds the copyright on all of them. Also interesting is
that the gallery makes no note of this. It contains no critical commentary
on the images in question and has no claim to be fair use - nor does it
assert that it is. It's just a web gallery of pretty little copyrighted
images used without permission of the copyright holder - about as blatant
a copyright violation as we could arrange if we tried.

Is anyone doing anything about this?

Regards,
Haukur

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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Haukur Þorgeirsson
> Look at this yummy gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images

And I know this isn't anything new, we've been talking about this problem
for a long time. So is anyone working on a technical solution?

I mean, it's not like these galleries are hidden to the reader or even
hard to find. Go to [[Pikachu]], click on the image and then click on
[[Pokémon images]] - a very natural thing to do.

Better still - do a straight Google search for "Pokémon images". Our
gallery is the second hit. I repeat - if you're searching for Pokémon
images on Google you'll find that Wikipedia has a very nice gallery of
them.

We're seeing revert wars and blocks over fair use images on user pages. I
assert that our fair use galleries are a bigger problem.

Regards,
Haukur

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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Justin Cormack
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 15:39 +0000, Haukur Þorgeirsson wrote:
> > Look at this yummy gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images
>
> And I know this isn't anything new, we've been talking about this problem
> for a long time. So is anyone working on a technical solution?

There are a lot more than 200, thats just the first page.

The best technical solution is to delete them all.

I did once submit 5000 audio files to IfD in one go. And
got them deleted.

The Pokemonites are rabid though, they wont let you delete
anything.

Justinc


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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Phil Boswell
In reply to this post by Haukur Þorgeirsson
"Haukur Þorgeirsson" <[hidden email]> wrote in
message news:[hidden email]...
> > Look at this yummy gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images
> Better still - do a straight Google search for "Pokémon images". Our
> gallery is the second hit. I repeat - if you're searching for Pokémon
> images on Google you'll find that Wikipedia has a very nice gallery of
> them.

#11 when I checked, but I get your point.

So what about if you try a Google IMAGE Search:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=%22Pok%C3%A9mon%20images%22&sa=N&tab=wi

Are they about to sue Google because you can display pictures of Pokémon
images through Google?

Are these images used properly on the actual pages in which they are placed?
If so, why would you want to delete them, since this would presumably damage
those articles.

WP:AGF says that I shouldn't speculate as to whether that might be the
idea...

The category listing is a purely mechanical list generated for management
purposes. It has no more real significance than the Google Image Search.

Possibly a better thought would be to add the Category namespace to
robots.txt: why does anyone need to crawl any namespace bu the main one
anyway?
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]



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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Steve Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Justin Cormack
Are there any pokemonite admins? If not, let's crush these 12 year olds. >:D

Steve

On 1/27/06, Justin Cormack <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 15:39 +0000, Haukur Þorgeirsson wrote:
> > > Look at this yummy gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images
> >
> > And I know this isn't anything new, we've been talking about this problem
> > for a long time. So is anyone working on a technical solution?
>
> There are a lot more than 200, thats just the first page.
>
> The best technical solution is to delete them all.
>
> I did once submit 5000 audio files to IfD in one go. And
> got them deleted.
>
> The Pokemonites are rabid though, they wont let you delete
> anything.
>
> Justinc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Haukur Þorgeirsson
In reply to this post by Phil Boswell
>> Better still - do a straight Google search for "Pokémon images". Our
>> gallery is the second hit. I repeat - if you're searching for Pokémon
>> images on Google you'll find that Wikipedia has a very nice gallery of
>> them.
>
> #11 when I checked, but I get your point.

I suppose it depends on whether you include the acute accent and whether
you include the phrase within quotes.


> Are these images used properly on the actual
> pages in which they are placed? If so, why
> would you want to delete them, since this
> would presumably damage those articles.

I don't want to delete them - I just don't want them to put us in trouble.
And the problem isn't really about Pokémon, that's just a good
illustration of it.


> The category listing is a purely mechanical list generated for management
> purposes.

Yes, this is the problem. It's a complete accident that it comes out as a
gallery. But it still does. An accidental copyright violation is still a
copyright violation. And even though it's intended for management it's
still easily accessible to the general reader (and Google searcher).

Regards,
Haukur

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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Justin Cormack
In reply to this post by Phil Boswell
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 16:09 +0000, Phil Boswell wrote:

> "Haukur orgeirsson" <[hidden email]> wrote in
> message news:[hidden email]...
> > > Look at this yummy gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images
> > Better still - do a straight Google search for "Pokmon images". Our
> > gallery is the second hit. I repeat - if you're searching for Pokmon
> > images on Google you'll find that Wikipedia has a very nice gallery of
> > them.
>
> #11 when I checked, but I get your point.
>
> So what about if you try a Google IMAGE Search:
> http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=%22Pok%C3%A9mon%20images%22&sa=N&tab=wi
>
> Are they about to sue Google because you can display pictures of Pokmon
> images through Google?

Funny, someone just did.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/27/google_cache_copyright_breach_ruling/

However a brief scan suggests that our Pokemon collection would not be
covered under this ruling at all.

Justinc


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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Justin Cormack
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 16:30 +0000, Justin Cormack wrote:
> > Are they about to sue Google because you can display pictures of Pokmon
> > images through Google?
>
> Funny, someone just did.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/27/google_cache_copyright_breach_ruling/
>
> However a brief scan suggests that our Pokemon collection would not be
> covered under this ruling at all.

We definitely arent covered by this case. It covers temporary
cacheing with the copyright holder knowing that there is an
opt out agreement.

Replying to myself, one option to get us covered under this would be
to replace all our Pokemon images with offsite urls which we could
then temporarily cache ourselves.

Why we actually have to download all these "fair use" images and
store them (and redistribute them) when most are on websites anyway
(or could be put on Pokemon fansites in countries with lax laws)
is beyond me.

Why cant we support inlined or cached external images?

Obviously the links break every now and again but the
armies of Pokemonnies can fix that.

Justinc


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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Kirill Lokshin
On 1/27/06, Justin Cormack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why cant we support inlined or cached external images?

Because our less-than-fully-mature friends will quickly inline
hello.jpg into every article they can get their grubby little hands
on.

Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Justin Cormack
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 12:13 -0500, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
> On 1/27/06, Justin Cormack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Why cant we support inlined or cached external images?
>
> Because our less-than-fully-mature friends will quickly inline
> hello.jpg into every article they can get their grubby little hands
> on.

Yes but some changes to mediawiki so they behave just like normal
images except for us not having to have the source would be ok.

ie you still have an image page and image links (say XImage:),
but there is just a url attached not a real image. Not much
work - just change the file references in Image: to URL refs
in XImage:. We can still manage deletion, creation, talk pages
etc, just we no longer host the things, and can enforce which
sites they come off based on robots.txt etc.

Justinc


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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Stan Shebs
In reply to this post by Haukur Þorgeirsson
Haukur Þorgeirsson wrote:

>>Oh, it is, but it's the reason they want to link to us which is
>>worrying. We should *not* be a collection of movie posters or album
>>covers.
>>
>
>Look at this yummie gallery of 200 copyrighted images:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images
>
>Especially yummy, if you wanted to prosecute Wikipedia, is the fact that
>the same entity holds the copyright on all of them. Also interesting is
>that the gallery makes no note of this. It contains no critical commentary
>on the images in question and has no claim to be fair use - nor does it
>assert that it is. It's just a web gallery of pretty little copyrighted
>images used without permission of the copyright holder - about as blatant
>a copyright violation as we could arrange if we tried.
>
If it's such an awful violation, then why not send a letter to
Nintendo and/or Pokemon USA informing them of this nefarious
activity going on right under their noses?

We're all sitting around trading guesses on this sort of thing,
but an actual note from the copyright holder could put an
immediate end to the back-and-forth, plus it can be quoted to
any future uploaders, plus it can be used in speedy deletion
criteria.

It's such a simple solution, I'm a little surprised that fair-use
opponents haven't tried this already. (Of course, if the copyright
holder officially shrugs about WP usage, or defines what they
consider reasonable limits, that would make it harder to argue
that fair use is always unacceptable, so there's a little risk.)

Stan

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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Stan Shebs
In reply to this post by Haukur Þorgeirsson
Haukur Þorgeirsson wrote:

>>>Better still - do a straight Google search for "Pokémon images". Our
>>>gallery is the second hit. I repeat - if you're searching for Pokémon
>>>images on Google you'll find that Wikipedia has a very nice gallery of
>>>them.
>>>
>>#11 when I checked, but I get your point.
>>
>
>I suppose it depends on whether you include the acute accent and whether
>you include the phrase within quotes.
>
"pokemon" by itself to Google images only gets me Arpingstone's
photo of the 747 with recognizable Pokemon characters, but look
at this - it's on commons!! Oh the humanity! We're going to be
sued out of existence for sure!

:-)

(I'm thinking maybe I should send a pile of complaint letters
to copyright holders myself - getting tired of the apocalyptics.)

Stan

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Googlebomb

stevertigo
I'm pretty pleased with how WP:Shortcuts google.
Wondering if we can't get "wp" to do the same replace
"wordpress."

SV




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Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Haukur Þorgeirsson
In reply to this post by Stan Shebs
> If it's such an awful violation, then why not send a letter to
> Nintendo and/or Pokemon USA informing them of this nefarious
> activity going on right under their noses?

Because I'd like them to, you know, *not* put us into trouble. Wikipedia
is not a suicide pact. :)


> It's such a simple solution, I'm a little surprised that fair-use
> opponents haven't tried this already. (Of course, if the copyright
> holder officially shrugs about WP usage, or defines what they
> consider reasonable limits, that would make it harder to argue
> that fair use is always unacceptable, so there's a little risk.)

Fair use is fine. I'm an advocate of fair use. The problem is that
*galleries* of proprietary images with no commentary are very unlikely to
be considered fair use even if each image in itself is fair use in the
right context.

Fair use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikachu

Unfair use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pok%C3%A9mon_images

Kveðja,
Haukur

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Re: Re: Our Pokémon gallery

Sean Barrett-2
In reply to this post by Stan Shebs
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Stan Shebs stated for the record:

> "pokemon" by itself to Google images only gets me Arpingstone's
> photo of the 747 with recognizable Pokemon characters, but look
> at this - it's on commons!! Oh the humanity! We're going to be
> sued out of existence for sure!
>
> :-)
>
> (I'm thinking maybe I should send a pile of complaint letters
> to copyright holders myself - getting tired of the apocalyptics.)
>
> Stan

[[WP:POINT]]

- --
 Sean Barrett     | Some days it's just not worth filing
 [hidden email] | the environmental impact statement.
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RE: Re: Fair use has come back to bite us

Peter Mackay
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alphax
> (Wikipedia email)
> > That looks like link exchange spam to me. Some of the OTRS
> queues get
> > it every day. I very much doubt the sender knew anything more about
> > Wikipedia's image use policy than he knew about the
> thousands of other
> > email addresses he spammed. Besides, Wikipedia has long
> since passed
> > the point of being impressed by PR 6 or 7 ;)
>
> Oh, it is, but it's the reason they want to link to us which
> is worrying. We should *not* be a collection of movie posters
> or album covers.

I hate to gainsay a lady, but I couldn't see anything in their message to us
which indicated that they saw us in such a light.

Having said that, it might be worth checking to see if album covers or movie
posters are stored in a high-resolution format and asking that they be
deleted or downgraded if so. I wouldn't wish this on anybody as a project,
but it's something to think about next time you pass by (say) Star Wars
and/or Elton John.

Peter (Skyring)


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