Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Anirudh S. Bhati
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:56 PM Mina Theofilatou <[hidden email]> wrote:
White female speaking: this is an important discussion for EVERYONE. I will refrain from replying often as I was upset by the incident in CT, and I have personal experience of an incident at Wikimania 2016, and thus I find it hard to not get carried away. So I will reiterate that TRANSPARENCY is what we need. 

(And in reply to WMF input to this thread: just because the Trust & Safety team bears the name does not mean that they unconditionally deserve our trust, nor that our safety is safeguarded. Names and titles abound in society. If content adhered to name there would be no need for dispute and conflict)

I wholeheartedly agree with you - transparency is needed to ensure accountability. One's title does not automatically bestow legitimacy to your actions and decisions specially when they affect the lives and reputations of others.

Also, one's racial or sexual identity should not be used to discount their opinions. That's not the Wikimedia way.



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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Luca Martinelli
In reply to this post by Philip Kopetzky
Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 09:00 Philip Kopetzky
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> Guys, can you please take any discussion among you white males to Wikimedia-l if you still feel the need to discuss this amongst you? You can't force a public debate, especially wheb Asaf and Lilli have already stated the obvious.

Plonk.

--
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http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Luca Martinelli
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 12:57 Deryck Chan
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> The problem here is that if WMF or the organisers of an event needs to enforce FSP and keeps secret about the entire incident, speculation and one-sided perspectives can run amok in the community debate that ensues.
>
> Lilli and Asaf have a good point: the specifics about a case of FSP enforcement ought not to be the subject of public debate because that creates additional stress on the participants. But for the enforcers to keep utter silence has served the opposite purpose: the lack of an official statement of enforcement has caused speculation to run wild.
>
> It would be in the interest of both transparency and justice that the T&S or the organisers make a short announcement whenever FSP is invoked. It could be as anonymous as "We have had an incident where an attendee felt uncomfortable in a discussion. Attendees are reminded to... [insert appropriate behaviour]"
>
> What is missing from the FSP process is this pre-emptive, limited release of information from an act of enforcement. It can come with a reminder that further discussion of the incident is discouraged to protect the privacy of those involved.

+2. Just to let you know, Wikimedia Italia has recently approved a
Code of Conduct,[1] roughly based on WMF's Friendly Space Policy, with
the difference that we explicitly stated that the person that gets
sanctioned in light of the Code of Conduct has the right to know why
the sanction has been taken.

I think *this* would be the one and only amendment that we should do
to the FSP. It doesn't have to be publicly announced by Katherine or
Jimbo to the whole assembly, but at least it'd be nice for the person
affected to know.

There's also another thing we should do, but this cannot be an
amendment to the FSP. I quote directly DaB. on this:

Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 02:24 DaB. <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> I will respect the other people around me, I will try to
> not make them uncomfortable, and if there is a problem (for example:
> being too loud) I expect that somebody will talk to me, and I’m sure
> that there will be a solution.

I know that somebody would feel... weird in asking certain things, or
to respect certain things. I know what it's like, because I live in
constant fear of "doing the wrong thing", since I too have some minor
problems in approaching new people, and sometimes overthink too much
the weight of my words or actions.

Asking politely not to do certain things to me is perfect, but in a
way we should remember Wikimania or any other wiki event is NOT an
hostile environment - quite the opposite. In my experience, I found
wiki events the perfect environment to step up a bit my "social
skills", because I know this is *my* people I'm addressing, let's not
forget that.

L.

[1] https://wiki.wikimedia.it/wiki/Codice_di_condotta (Italian only)

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Pine W
Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
because it's really important:

> 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
in have a  different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.

So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
easy to laugh off.

Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
this conversation.

Regards,

Chris

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Béria Lima
Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I need to answer something. 

***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.***

First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer discrimination not less. 

Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done want that). 

The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we should uphold to that if equality is what we want. 

PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be the reason why you listen to me. 

On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
because it's really important:

> 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
in have a  different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.

So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
easy to laugh off.

Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
this conversation.

Regards,

Chris

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

James Alexander-4
Hey all,

The Trust & Safety team appreciates and has carefully reviewed the input provided here, in person during the event, and off-list. As the wider Wikimedia movement and offline Wikimedia events grow and mature, so must support for those events. That support takes many forms, but includes friendly/safe space policies (FSP).

This is not a need surfaced by the Foundation or by any specific group, but a request raised by countless event attendees and organizers. Attendees, regardless of culture and background, want to be sure that there is some baseline standard of behavior they can expect and that they are empowered to set their own boundaries within reason - and that those will be respected. Event organizers want help to set up a process like this and to ensure that it is appropriately communicated and enforced.

This type of support is ongoing from both multiple Foundation departments and many affiliates. Trust & Safety has, for example, been working on a collection of trainings and visual materials for event organizers which were recently published on Meta-Wiki[1] and used at Wikimania. The feedback so far from event organizers and attendees has been good (and we welcome more feedback on Meta!), but it is very clear that there is more that can and should be done from all directions.

The event has surfaced a number of issues relating to event safety, including how best to handle incidents when they are discussed publicly, and clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues (which may touch on FSP needs but are generally longer term situations) which are often being dealt with simultaneously. The support role we take on at large events such as Wikimania, which are attended by hundreds of people and run by relatively small organizing teams, can blur this line.

These and other items raised strike us as opportunities for a more structured discussion of how to improve the existing policy and the implementation expectations it sets. 

Therefore, we will be facilitating a public review of our friendly space policies early in Q3 (January-March 2019). The facilitated process will aim to have a reviewed version of the FSP ready for final conversations and refinements around the time of the Wikimedia Conference 2019 in March.

In addition, the Board asked the Community Engagement department in April to produce a  report on FSP violations reported to us, which will happen twice-yearly. The first of these is due December 21 for violations during the first half of our fiscal year, and so that will also will be available for the consultation period and cover incidents tracked since July 1st in appropriate form.

Again, we recognize that this is a important topic to get right, and we hope that these steps will help to improve these processes within the Wikimedia movement going forward.

James


James Alexander
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation


On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:46 PM Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:
Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I need to answer something. 

***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.***

First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer discrimination not less. 

Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done want that). 

The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we should uphold to that if equality is what we want. 

PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be the reason why you listen to me. 

On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
because it's really important:

> 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
in have a  different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.

So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
easy to laugh off.

Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
this conversation.

Regards,

Chris

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Pine W
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Kevin Payravi
> I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers

I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.

As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise. Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.

There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if an incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important - and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.

Thanks,
Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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P: (330) 554 - 3397


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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Pine W
I agree on the tracking issue. A few years ago I heard about a situation in which a law enforcement agency was tracking complaints about its officers and learned through that system that one of its officers had a pattern of receiving "courtesy complaints", not bad enough to indicate that the officer should be fired, but problematic enough in a pattern to suggest  that intervention from a supervisor was appropriate. The intervention that was attempted was to pair that officer with a more experienced officer to teach the younger officer about how to do his/her job with less friction. After that intervention, the pattern of complaints stopped.



On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 7:32 PM, Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers

I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.

As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise. Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.

There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if an incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important - and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.

Thanks,
Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Pine W

This is reasonable, and could save lots of dramah.  I am going to assume that the default position is “not offended by friendly contact”, but whichever is the most common position should be default in both cases, and suggest that the indicator should be visible all round.

Cheers,

Peter

 

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: 03 August 2018 21:08
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

 

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

 

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

 

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

 

Thanks for your attention to these issues.

 

Image removed by sender.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 


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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

cs
In reply to this post by Pine W
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Gnangarra
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

cs
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Effe iets anders
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Kevin Payravi
Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).

As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.

Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster @ en.wiki

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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--
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.

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P: (330) 554 - 3397


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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by Effe iets anders
The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances.  Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people. There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing someone from taking the photograph. 

Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue, I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free knowledge.   A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is why I raised the example.
 




On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
_______________________________________________
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--
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

cs
Lodeweik, 

I never mentioned nor hinted at second rank participants. If you think some are, that's your problem but don't misquote me. Thank you.

Kudpung

On 6 Aug 2018, at 14:17, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances.  Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people. There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing someone from taking the photograph. 

Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue, I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free knowledge.   A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is why I raised the example.
 




On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
_______________________________________________
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--
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

cs
In reply to this post by Kevin Payravi
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature  is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

Kudpung

On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).

As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.

Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster @ en.wiki

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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--
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.

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P: (330) 554 - 3397

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Ranjith S
+1
Regards,

Ranjith Siji
Smashing Web

Chat Google Talk: ranjith.sajeev Skype: ranjith.sajeev


On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM CS <[hidden email]> wrote:
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature  is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

Kudpung

On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).

As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.

Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster @ en.wiki

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is going wildly of topic.  But... 
The decency? 

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. 

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction. 

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
In  which  case, those people  should have the decency  to  not  present  themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video  recording is very likely to take place. Or  politely  take space at  the back  of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I  don’t  see why  anyone should be embarrassed at  being  part of a benevolent movement such  as  Wikipedia - have they  something  disastrous to  hide? In  which  case, perhaps they  better not  go  to  Wikimania at  all,  and if they  are scholarship  recipients, give their place over to  someone else.

Kudpung

On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

We’ll  porbably  never know the details of the incident  that  sparked all  this off but do I  think  it is getting  out  of proportion.

Kudpung

On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Anirudh S. Bhati
In reply to this post by cs
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 2:34 PM CS <[hidden email]> wrote:
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature  is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

I agree with this.  Then there is this interpretation (which is new to me) that individuals who expressly consent to be photographed in groups at Wikimedia events can also expect their photos not be published online on either Commons or social media (without explaining their position to photographers).  I don't think this ever used to be the case.  Wikimania, by its very nature, is a social event and there was always a presumption of consent in the absence of express prohibition.

I do think now that there is a need for FSP to explicate norms for photography and publishing.


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