Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Pierre-Selim
Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature  is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with others, etc.
And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.
 
So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get it right, not the other way around.

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Paulo Santos Perneta
Concerning photographs, it would be easier if they were generally limited to some kind of "official photographers" & group photographs during those events. I'm new to Wikimedia events, and only attended two, last WMCON in Berlin and Big Fat Brussels. In Brussels we were asked to not photograph the participants unless it was explicitly allowed (such as in group photographs), which I found quite reasonable - and, frankly, it was a relief.

As for touching, I'm a bit shy myself, and feel somewhat uneasy when someone hugs or touches me, but I would never ask someone to not do what generally is a genuine proof of affection & friendship, let alone denounce that person. When it's too close that it becomes embarassing, one can just ask the other to stay a bit farther. We just need to ask, to communicate - it doesn't seem that hard, that difficult. And doesn't seem at all the kind of thing that would grant a report to the Safety team, and even less some kind of reaction from them.

All the best,

Paulo

2018-08-06 10:21 GMT+01:00 Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]>:
Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature  is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with others, etc.
And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.
 
So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get it right, not the other way around.

--
Pierre-Selim



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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by cs
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:11 AM cs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I’ve been to  a great  many  international  conferences in  my  career -  but  not  so many  since I  retired. I  can’t  recall  people wearing  ‘Don’t  touch me’,  ‘Don’t  photo me’, ‘Don’t  come near me’, ‘Don’t  talk  to  me’ badges. Do  they  do  it  nowadays already?

No, they don't. This proposal would make Wikimania the first
conference to outsource basic social awareness to a set of coloured
spots stuck to the front of badges.

I can't say it would be a positive change, not least because people
would start blaming harrassment on people not wearing the right
coloured badge.

Chris

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
In the world we have a big problem of violence against women, but also towards to the LGBT+ community and I think these problems are a serious problem we all can recognise. To create clarity we have a Friendly Space Policy what clearly defines what is unacceptable, something that we all can recognise.


But what should happen when somebody feels uncomfortable, while there is no violation of the Friendly Space Policy?

And in addition, if that somebody does not indicate to feel uncomfortable, so the other person has no way to know someone is uncomfortable. And thus can't fix/help to remove the uncomfortable part of the situation.



If then actions are taken towards the person who apparently created an uncomfortable feeling without knowing that, who also got no indication as such to fix, then this raises to me a lot of questions.
What then happens is that the Trust and Safety team creates for that person an unsafe environment.
And not just for this person, but to anyone who has interaction with another person.

And the more interactions you have with people, the higher is the risk that there is someone feeling uncomfortable.
Especially those people, maybe you have seen them, that walk around to help others, answer questions, etc, (there are various of them at Wikimania), especially those people are at high risk.

If then the Trust and Safety team is taking action, something goes wrong, then an event is no longer safe.




> What we can do as a community is debate *principles*, i.e. the policy itself.

I think it is not the policy that is the actual subject for debate, but it is about how the policy is used, or otherwise the way how we deal as movement with this kind of situations.
What are the general principles according how the trust and Safety team acts. Those can be open and should not be a black box.

A second thing (or maybe the same) that is something we can talk about is what do we do as movement when somebody feels uncomfortable (as described)?
How can we help this person with this feeling to be comfortable again?


Romaine



2018-07-29 20:57 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>:
On 29 July 2018 at 18:27, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lots of opinions from people going "well this person didn't harass
> me" or "I don't know the specifics but maybe it's just cultural
> differences"

I'm one of the people who commented, early on, on that original
thread; and I don't believe that describes my post.

I did note that there was prima face evidence that a community member
who had a disability (my word for it; not theirs) appeared to have
been discriminated against, at least in part, due to the effects of
that disability. I would expect or "safe space" policy to ensure that
this did not happen.

I have not seen a single response, to date, that has addressed this
point; either specifically or in general.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Stuart Prior
Hello all,

In response to this I wrote something in defence of friendly space policies, as I think we are looking at them the wrong way.
It's far from complete but just a few ideas.


TL:DR: Safe space policies are important, 
but
being both less defensive, and less judgemental
about infractions,
is good
, and the only way we learn.


Thanks

S

On 15 August 2018 at 04:39, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
In the world we have a big problem of violence against women, but also towards to the LGBT+ community and I think these problems are a serious problem we all can recognise. To create clarity we have a Friendly Space Policy what clearly defines what is unacceptable, something that we all can recognise.


But what should happen when somebody feels uncomfortable, while there is no violation of the Friendly Space Policy?

And in addition, if that somebody does not indicate to feel uncomfortable, so the other person has no way to know someone is uncomfortable. And thus can't fix/help to remove the uncomfortable part of the situation.



If then actions are taken towards the person who apparently created an uncomfortable feeling without knowing that, who also got no indication as such to fix, then this raises to me a lot of questions.
What then happens is that the Trust and Safety team creates for that person an unsafe environment.
And not just for this person, but to anyone who has interaction with another person.

And the more interactions you have with people, the higher is the risk that there is someone feeling uncomfortable.
Especially those people, maybe you have seen them, that walk around to help others, answer questions, etc, (there are various of them at Wikimania), especially those people are at high risk.

If then the Trust and Safety team is taking action, something goes wrong, then an event is no longer safe.




> What we can do as a community is debate *principles*, i.e. the policy itself.

I think it is not the policy that is the actual subject for debate, but it is about how the policy is used, or otherwise the way how we deal as movement with this kind of situations.
What are the general principles according how the trust and Safety team acts. Those can be open and should not be a black box.

A second thing (or maybe the same) that is something we can talk about is what do we do as movement when somebody feels uncomfortable (as described)?
How can we help this person with this feeling to be comfortable again?


Romaine



2018-07-29 20:57 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>:
On 29 July 2018 at 18:27, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lots of opinions from people going "well this person didn't harass
> me" or "I don't know the specifics but maybe it's just cultural
> differences"

I'm one of the people who commented, early on, on that original
thread; and I don't believe that describes my post.

I did note that there was prima face evidence that a community member
who had a disability (my word for it; not theirs) appeared to have
been discriminated against, at least in part, due to the effects of
that disability. I would expect or "safe space" policy to ensure that
this did not happen.

I have not seen a single response, to date, that has addressed this
point; either specifically or in general.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Stuart Prior
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Wikimedia UK
+44 20 372 0769
+44 7879 015 385 (text me otherwise I might screen the call)

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