Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

David Gerard-2
Just what *is* the status of {{PD-Soviet}}? Is it bogus or not? Having
a bunch of wiki users vote on legal status doesn't strike me as
legally sound ...


- d.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eugene Zelenko <[hidden email]>
Date: 04-Sep-2006 16:20
Subject: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?
To: Wikimedia Commons Discussion List <[hidden email]>


Hi!

I have not good feelings about several recent discussions on Deletion
requests: trademarks and PD-Soviet. Discussions are more like politics
where more important is number of supporters, not arguments of sides.
And they are more like pack vs. pack fights, since supporters opinions
are defined by project where they are participating.

Professional lawyer advice could resolve such conflicts. So may be
it's good idea to seek such advice in such cases?

Eugene.

PS

{{PD-Polish}} could become next hot topic.
_______________________________________________
Commons-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Matthew Brown-5
On 9/4/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Just what *is* the status of {{PD-Soviet}}? Is it bogus or not? Having
> a bunch of wiki users vote on legal status doesn't strike me as
> legally sound ...

IMO, as an educated layman, {{PD-Soviet}} is bogus.  The arguments are
contradictory, half of them seem to boil down to 'nobody is going to
sue us over these anyway', and the interactions between
poorly-understood Soviet-era law, modern Russian etc. law, and
international treaties seem to indicate that while in Russia certain
works MAY be out of copyright protection, there is no sane reason to
believe this means a damn thing anywhere else in the world.  The works
that may be out of copyright protection in Russia seem, in fact, to be
FOREIGN works from the period, not Soviet works, and even then it's
quite probable that this does not apply to new copies made in the
present day.

IOW, if you're Russian, this may be of interest in terms of what you
can do inside Russia.  For the rest of us, IMO, standard
Berne-convention copyright law applies.  This applies to any other
version of the argument; Poland, Iran, or wherever.  In the Iran case,
people argue since Iran is not a Berne signatory, we can treat any
Iranian works as PD.  I don't think this is a sound policy morally
even if a lawyer could win with the argument.

-Matt
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

David Gerard-2
On 04/09/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 9/4/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Just what *is* the status of {{PD-Soviet}}? Is it bogus or not? Having
> > a bunch of wiki users vote on legal status doesn't strike me as
> > legally sound ...

> IMO, as an educated layman, {{PD-Soviet}} is bogus.


It seems a little ... odd. But the educated layman argument is another
wiki user vote. I'm asking what the Foundation's actual stated policy
on whether they're leaving themselves open to this or not is. That is,
a legal opinion, and not just any legal opinion but *our* legal
opinion. Hence asking on foundation-l.

(And that would suggest writing to juriwiki-l, but that unfortunately
seems to be a write-only list in practice.)


- d.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Ray Saintonge
David Gerard wrote:

>On 04/09/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>On 9/4/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Just what *is* the status of {{PD-Soviet}}? Is it bogus or not? Having
>>>a bunch of wiki users vote on legal status doesn't strike me as
>>>legally sound ...
>>>      
>>>
>>IMO, as an educated layman, {{PD-Soviet}} is bogus.
>>    
>>
>It seems a little ... odd. But the educated layman argument is another
>wiki user vote. I'm asking what the Foundation's actual stated policy
>on whether they're leaving themselves open to this or not is. That is,
>a legal opinion, and not just any legal opinion but *our* legal
>opinion. Hence asking on foundation-l.
>
>(And that would suggest writing to juriwiki-l, but that unfortunately
>seems to be a write-only list in practice.)
>
I also consider {{PD-Soviet}} suspect, despite my own more generally
aggressive views on matters of copyright.  In the absence of a clearly
expressed difference using the Berne Convention standards when you have
no reliable information about the country's laws is a good starting
point.  If soviet era copyright laws are to be ignored the burden of
proof should be on the person trying to make this argument in relation
to a specific piece of work.

Ec

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 9/4/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It seems a little ... odd. But the educated layman argument is another
> wiki user vote. I'm asking what the Foundation's actual stated policy
> on whether they're leaving themselves open to this or not is. That is,
> a legal opinion, and not just any legal opinion but *our* legal
> opinion. Hence asking on foundation-l.

Unfortunately, past experience says the foundation doesn't want to get
involved in decisions like that - for quite valid liability reasons, I
suspect.

So in practice, the users ARE the final arbiter of this, nine times
out of ten or more.  This suggests that an attitude of copyright
caution, but not paranoia, is required.

-Matt
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Anthony DiPierro
In reply to this post by Matthew Brown-5
On 9/4/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> IOW, if you're Russian, this may be of interest in terms of what you
> can do inside Russia.  For the rest of us, IMO, standard
> Berne-convention copyright law applies.  This applies to any other
> version of the argument; Poland, Iran, or wherever.  In the Iran case,
> people argue since Iran is not a Berne signatory, we can treat any
> Iranian works as PD.  I don't think this is a sound policy morally
> even if a lawyer could win with the argument.
>

You think it's immoral to use an image, that someone else created,
without permission, to teach someone about a subject, using the
internet?

That seems like a way over the top stance.  Of course my viewpoint is
exactly the opposite.  I think it's perfectly moral for Wikipedia to
use *any* image which helps educate the readers.  Well, maybe not
images which violate people's privacy, but except for that, I don't
see the harm.

Anthony
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:

> On 04/09/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>On 9/4/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>>Just what *is* the status of {{PD-Soviet}}? Is it bogus or not? Having
>>>a bunch of wiki users vote on legal status doesn't strike me as
>>>legally sound ...
>
>
>>IMO, as an educated layman, {{PD-Soviet}} is bogus.
>
>
>
> It seems a little ... odd. But the educated layman argument is another
> wiki user vote. I'm asking what the Foundation's actual stated policy
> on whether they're leaving themselves open to this or not is. That is,
> a legal opinion, and not just any legal opinion but *our* legal
> opinion. Hence asking on foundation-l.
>
> (And that would suggest writing to juriwiki-l, but that unfortunately
> seems to be a write-only list in practice.)
>
>
> - d.


Errrr. Afaik, anyone can write to juriwiki-l. This avoids legal issues
getting lost in the noise of this list. Well, in any cases, to be
certain an issue is noticed, you may put brad patrick in copy of any
mails of this type. Note that Brad is on holidays for the full week.

ant

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

David Gerard-2
On 05/09/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Errrr. Afaik, anyone can write to juriwiki-l.


And they famously never answer. But I suppose yes, I should at least try.


- d.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

KIZU Naoko
On 9/5/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 05/09/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And they famously never answer. But I suppose yes, I should at least try.

It's a rumor. Whenever I posted juriwiki-l directly, I got replies
from both Legal Officer (J-B Souffron) and board member(s). Most of
those mails were about trademarks. I think they worked not so badly as
rumored.

--
Kizu Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * vivemus, mea Lesbia, amemus *
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: [Commons-l] Time to Seek Professional Lawyers Advice?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Aphaia wrote:

> On 9/5/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> On 05/09/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> And they famously never answer. But I suppose yes, I should at least try.
>>    
>
> It's a rumor. Whenever I posted juriwiki-l directly, I got replies
> from both Legal Officer (J-B Souffron) and board member(s). Most of
> those mails were about trademarks. I think they worked not so badly as
> rumored.
Hoi,
I can only confirm the rumour not being a rumour.
Thanks,
    GerardM
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l