Geo meta tags on wiki pages

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Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Neil Phillips-2

Hi,

An increasing number of wiki pages use the

{{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}

Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.

Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into a
meta tag for the page e.g.
<meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />

So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
semantically ?

Cheers,

Neil

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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Minh Nguyen-2
This code only tells MediaWiki to embed the contents of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Mapit-AUS-suburbscale> into the
article. Right now, no template is able to modify anything within the
<head> tag, which is where any <meta> tag would reside. It might be
possible to use sitewide JavaScript to do it, but then that wouldn't be
useful for search engines.

Neil Phillips wrote:

> Hi,
>
> An increasing number of wiki pages use the
>
> {{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}
>
> Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.
>
> Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into a
> meta tag for the page e.g.
> <meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />
>
> So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
> semantically ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil

--
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AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: [hidden email]; Blog: http://mxn.f2o.org/

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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Nick Jenkins
In reply to this post by Neil Phillips-2
He has a got a point. It could be nice to be able to include that
stuff in the META headers, by having the geolinks templates ( such as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coordinates_templates ) include
some wikitext like "{{GEOHEADER|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}", where
"GEOHEADER" was a magic wiki word, that did a "-01234567890." sanity
check on the args (like RFC, ISBN, and PMID), and if it checked out
included the appropriate headers.

However, some devil's advocate questions come to mind:
* How used are these headers, really? Is it a niche thing?
* If it's niche thing currently, then why? Is the reason because it's
useless / a-solution-in-search-of-a-problem, or is it a niche thing
because nobody has put up a large corpus of useful data that uses it
yet?
* Are there standards that cover this stuff? Have those standards been
ratified / broadly agreed up / standardized / progressed beyond draft
status / reached consensus by some independent group / body /
organisation?
* Which of the format or formats are we talking about? For example,
from http://webtips.dan.info/titles.html , I see there are things like
this:

<META name="geo.position" content="26.367559;-80.12172">
<META name="geo.region" content="US-FL">
<META name="geo.placename" content="Boca Raton, FL">
<META name="ICBM" content="26.367559, -80.12172">

( see http://geotags.com/geo/geotags2.html and
http://geourl.org/add.html ; seems also to be some info about Flickr
tags on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoTagging about using yet
another method)
* Would it be just "ICBM" we're taking about, or just "geo.position",
or both? Because they seem to be doing exactly the same thing.
* What about "geo.region", and "geo.placename"?

All the best,
Nick.

> This code only tells MediaWiki to embed the contents of
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Mapit-AUS-suburbscale> into the
> article. Right now, no template is able to modify anything within the
> <head> tag, which is where any <meta> tag would reside. It might be
> possible to use sitewide JavaScript to do it, but then that wouldn't be
> useful for search engines.
>
> Neil Phillips wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > An increasing number of wiki pages use the
> >
> > {{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}
> >
> > Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.
> >
> > Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into a
> > meta tag for the page e.g.
> > <meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />
> >
> > So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
> > semantically ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Neil
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Max Voelkel-2
In reply to this post by Neil Phillips-2
Hello Neil and all,

> An increasing number of wiki pages use the

> {{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}

> Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.

> Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into a
> meta tag for the page e.g.
> <meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />

> So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
> semantically ?
One  option would be to use the "Semantic MediaWiki" [1] extension and
simply  annotate the template. Then each page has a link in its header
to an RDF file containingthe information.

A sample of such an annotated page is at
http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php?title=Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales

- it looks exactly as always (but has a header link to RDF). The trick is in the tempate:
http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Template:Geolinks-AUS-suburbscale

and the result is this RDF:
<!-- exported page data -->
        <smw:Thing rdf:about="&thing;Bundeena-2C_New_South_Wales">
                <rdfs:label>Bundeena, New South Wales</rdfs:label>
                <smw:hasArticle rdf:resource="&wikiurl;Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales"/>
                <rdfs:isDefinedBy rdf:resource="&wikiurl;Special:ExportRDF/Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales"/>
                <attribute:Longitude rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">151.15406</attribute:Longitude>
                <attribute:Latitute rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">-34.08806</attribute:Latitute>
        </smw:Thing>

Does this help?

[1] http://wiki.ontoworld.org


Kind regards,

  Max Völkel
--
Dipl.-Inform. Max Völkel, Universität Karlsruhe / FZI
            nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org
[hidden email]   +49 721 9654-854   www.xam.de

First Workshop on Semantic Wikis: http://semwiki.org

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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Plyd-2
Is there a schedule for the use of semantic mediawiki in wikipedia?

Plyd

On 5/25/06, Max Völkel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Neil and all,
>
> > An increasing number of wiki pages use the
>
> > {{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}
>
> > Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.
>
> > Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into a
> > meta tag for the page e.g.
> > <meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />
>
> > So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
> > semantically ?
> One  option would be to use the "Semantic MediaWiki" [1] extension and
> simply  annotate the template. Then each page has a link in its header
> to an RDF file containingthe information.
>
> A sample of such an annotated page is at
> http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php?title=Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales
>
> - it looks exactly as always (but has a header link to RDF). The trick is in the tempate:
> http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Template:Geolinks-AUS-suburbscale
>
> and the result is this RDF:
> <!-- exported page data -->
>         <smw:Thing rdf:about="&thing;Bundeena-2C_New_South_Wales">
>                 <rdfs:label>Bundeena, New South Wales</rdfs:label>
>                 <smw:hasArticle rdf:resource="&wikiurl;Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales"/>
>                 <rdfs:isDefinedBy rdf:resource="&wikiurl;Special:ExportRDF/Bundeena%2C_New_South_Wales"/>
>                 <attribute:Longitude rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">151.15406</attribute:Longitude>
>                 <attribute:Latitute rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">-34.08806</attribute:Latitute>
>         </smw:Thing>
>
> Does this help?
>
> [1] http://wiki.ontoworld.org
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>   Max Völkel
> --
> Dipl.-Inform. Max Völkel, Universität Karlsruhe / FZI
>             nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org
> [hidden email]   +49 721 9654-854   www.xam.de
>
> First Workshop on Semantic Wikis: http://semwiki.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Brion Vibber
Plyd wrote:
> Is there a schedule for the use of semantic mediawiki in wikipedia?

No.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Plyd-2
May I ask why?

Plyd

On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Plyd wrote:
> > Is there a schedule for the use of semantic mediawiki in wikipedia?
>
> No.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Elliott F. Cable
Because it's not that useful, not a part of an original plan and  
implemented by a third party, and not well implemented at that.  
*Maybe* when it matures a bit, and a definite need can be established.

On May 25, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Plyd wrote:

> May I ask why?
>
> Plyd
>
> On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Plyd wrote:
>>> Is there a schedule for the use of semantic mediawiki in wikipedia?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Brion Vibber
In reply to this post by Plyd-2
Plyd wrote:
> May I ask why?

Why would there be?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Neil Phillips-2
In reply to this post by Nick Jenkins
Thanks Nick,

These headers are being used by a couple of sites, mainly in the blogging
space (e.g. http://geourl.org), but getting you're right in asserting that a
large corpus would further improve their use.

geo.position and ICBM are interchangeable, an emphasis on latitude and
longitude would make more sense for the articles described below, as this
information is already in the article (region and place name are less useful
as they're inherently ambigious).

The ISBN type approach would seem (to me) to make a great deal of sense.

Cheers,

Neil

"Nick Jenkins" <[hidden email]> wrote in
message news:[hidden email]...

> He has a got a point. It could be nice to be able to include that
> stuff in the META headers, by having the geolinks templates ( such as
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coordinates_templates ) include
> some wikitext like "{{GEOHEADER|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}", where
> "GEOHEADER" was a magic wiki word, that did a "-01234567890." sanity
> check on the args (like RFC, ISBN, and PMID), and if it checked out
> included the appropriate headers.
>
> However, some devil's advocate questions come to mind:
> * How used are these headers, really? Is it a niche thing?
> * If it's niche thing currently, then why? Is the reason because it's
> useless / a-solution-in-search-of-a-problem, or is it a niche thing
> because nobody has put up a large corpus of useful data that uses it
> yet?
> * Are there standards that cover this stuff? Have those standards been
> ratified / broadly agreed up / standardized / progressed beyond draft
> status / reached consensus by some independent group / body /
> organisation?
> * Which of the format or formats are we talking about? For example,
> from http://webtips.dan.info/titles.html , I see there are things like
> this:
>
> <META name="geo.position" content="26.367559;-80.12172">
> <META name="geo.region" content="US-FL">
> <META name="geo.placename" content="Boca Raton, FL">
> <META name="ICBM" content="26.367559, -80.12172">
>
> ( see http://geotags.com/geo/geotags2.html and
> http://geourl.org/add.html ; seems also to be some info about Flickr
> tags on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoTagging about using yet
> another method)
> * Would it be just "ICBM" we're taking about, or just "geo.position",
> or both? Because they seem to be doing exactly the same thing.
> * What about "geo.region", and "geo.placename"?
>
> All the best,
> Nick.
>
>> This code only tells MediaWiki to embed the contents of
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Mapit-AUS-suburbscale> into the
>> article. Right now, no template is able to modify anything within the
>> <head> tag, which is where any <meta> tag would reside. It might be
>> possible to use sitewide JavaScript to do it, but then that wouldn't be
>> useful for search engines.
>>
>> Neil Phillips wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > An increasing number of wiki pages use the
>> >
>> > {{Mapit-AUS-suburbscale|long=151.21459|lat=-33.87531}}
>> >
>> > Type notation to indicate the page relates to a specific location.
>> >
>> > Where would I go to request that this information is also embedded into
>> > a
>> > meta tag for the page e.g.
>> > <meta name="ICBM" content="-33.87531,151.21459" />
>> >
>> > So capable browsers/search engines can use this information more
>> > semantically ?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Neil



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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Plyd-2
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber
On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Plyd wrote:
> > May I ask why?
> Why would there be?

I didn't take part in this project and I'm sure they could convince
much better than me but...

First, it's very easy to add their relations in the already existing
infoboxes (makes relations for all the articles at the same time).

My point of vue :
- With semantic, data can be used at different places and defined only
once (a bit like openrecord.com, with their views).
- It could create automatic lists (example lists of cities sorted by
country, by population, etc.).
- Relations makes browsing information much easier than with
categories. (Example: I'm looking for all english scientists born
between 1500 and 1550)
- for the wiktionnary it could help classifiying data, and make it
easier to present it in the view you like, external or not.
- RDF export could help making Wikipedia an online database (as imdb,
but for various subjects, and open), that could be used inside other
softwares. For example, music showing Wikipedia neutral info, title,
singer picture, its discs etc. while playing my mp3, or it could be
for a book). Maybe also in a map, with cities etc.

Imho semantic could help spreading wikipedia content (relations but
also text) on more supports than the actual website.

Plyd
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Brion Vibber
Plyd wrote:
> On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Plyd wrote:
>>> May I ask why?
>> Why would there be?
>
> I didn't take part in this project and I'm sure they could convince
> much better than me but...

[snip]

There's thousands of things that we could potentially try to add to the wiki.
That doesn't mean there's a schedule for each and every one of them. Most of
them will never be tried.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Steve Bennett-4
On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There's thousands of things that we could potentially try to add to the wiki.
> That doesn't mean there's a schedule for each and every one of them. Most of
> them will never be tried.

Is this any sort of discussion process for working out what does and
doesn't make it in, or does it come down to existence of a developer
willing to implement it, and belief of other developers that the
change won't break stuff?

Steve
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Elliott F. Cable
More the belief that it is needed. The point is not to bloat things  
and confuse people, which semantic MW does.


On May 26, 2006, at 4:12 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 5/26/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There's thousands of things that we could potentially try to add  
>> to the wiki.
>> That doesn't mean there's a schedule for each and every one of  
>> them. Most of
>> them will never be tried.
> Is this any sort of discussion process for working out what does and
> doesn't make it in, or does it come down to existence of a developer
> willing to implement it, and belief of other developers that the
> change won't break stuff?
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Jens Frank
On Fri, May 26, 2006 at 10:39:21AM -0800, Elliott F. Cable wrote:
> More the belief that it is needed. The point is not to bloat things  
> and confuse people, which semantic MW does.

The idea of wiki syntax is to be simple. Easy to learn. MediaWiki
already includes many features where this does not apply:
* table markup
* templates
* advanced image syntax

The additional changes to the syntax needed for Semantic Mediawiki would
make the syntax even more difficult to understand, especially for people
who are not aware of semantic markup. Things like

        San Diego is a [[is a::city]]. It has a population of
        [[population:=1300000]].

are not very intuitive any more. Good ideas how to hide the complexity
from newbies would be very welcome.

Another problem with SMW is code quality, which currently is not good
enough for use at Wikipedia. Scalability has improved with 0.4, but
more improvement is still needed.

SMW also needs a security review, looking at the code for a few minutes
already showed XSS issues that need to be fixed urgently.

Regards,

        jens
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Steve Bennett-4
On 6/3/06, Jens Frank <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The additional changes to the syntax needed for Semantic Mediawiki would
> make the syntax even more difficult to understand, especially for people
> who are not aware of semantic markup. Things like
>
>         San Diego is a [[is a::city]]. It has a population of
>         [[population:=1300000]].
>
> are not very intuitive any more. Good ideas how to hide the complexity
> from newbies would be very welcome.

The two specific examples you give could be handled by rigorous use of
categories and infoboxes respectively. If all cities belonged to a
subcategory of Category:Cities, and all cities had an infobox derived
from some {{City infobox}} with a "population" parameter, you would
have some "semantic markup" for nothing.

Steve
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Jens Frank
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 09:19:28AM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 6/3/06, Jens Frank <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The additional changes to the syntax needed for Semantic Mediawiki would
> > make the syntax even more difficult to understand, especially for people
> > who are not aware of semantic markup. Things like
> >
> >         San Diego is a [[is a::city]]. It has a population of
> >         [[population:=1300000]].
> >
> > are not very intuitive any more. Good ideas how to hide the complexity
> > from newbies would be very welcome.
>
> The two specific examples you give could be handled by rigorous use of
> categories and infoboxes respectively. If all cities belonged to a
> subcategory of Category:Cities, and all cities had an infobox derived
> from some {{City infobox}} with a "population" parameter, you would
> have some "semantic markup" for nothing.

The category is of only limited use the way it's currently implemented.
There is no efficient way to find the sub/supercategory relationships.

And the {{city infoboxes}} aren't a usability improvement at all. Their
syntax is even worse. And of course we could put all the information
into city infoboxes, but then we could stop writing articles and just
create tables. There is more information about a city then the infobox.
[[discovered by::Columbus]], [[founded by::Caesar]], [[conquered
by::William II.]], ...

Regards,

        jens
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Steve Bennett-4
On 6/3/06, Jens Frank <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And the {{city infoboxes}} aren't a usability improvement at all. Their
> syntax is even worse. And of course we could put all the information
> into city infoboxes, but then we could stop writing articles and just
> create tables. There is more information about a city then the infobox.
> [[discovered by::Columbus]], [[founded by::Caesar]], [[conquered
> by::William II.]], ...

Can you explain the goals of "semantic markup" a bit further, so I can
give a meaningful reply?

Steve
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Re: Geo meta tags on wiki pages

Tony Bowden
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 07:17:50PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
> Can you explain the goals of "semantic markup" a bit further, so I can
> give a meaningful reply?

I'm not one of the developers of the Semantic Mediawiki extension, but I
am a user (most notably on the Bible Wiki at http://bible.tmtm.com/)
and for me the two key goals are:

1) Internal queries - being able, for example, to dynamically
display a list of all the rulers of Judah in chronological order
(http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/King_of_Judah)

2) External queries - the data that is annotated in the text can be
retrieved as RDF (http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Special:ExportRDF/Rehoboam)
which can then be fed into an RDF reasoner. As well as being able to
use this data locally, this will become increasingly useful as search
engines start to gain the ability to work with structured data rather
than just raw text. (See announcement just this week for Pingerati)

Tony
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